Major Problem with Professional Monitor Speakers!

[DEF]

This is a cry for help.
I have tried 2xNeumann KH120A 2 years ago and a pair of Genelec 8010A today.
Both of those speakers give me headache so bad that I am almost crying.
They were used at -40db on my ADI 2 DAC FS and at the lowest gain on the pad.

It feels like when I use them, I am many times in and out of the sweetspot.
It feels like, somebody put a blanket over my ears and keeps rubbing it while I have to focus on the music.
I have to increase the volume to understand the voice in Music.
The pain gets worse. I have to shut the unit off.

Astonishing! Different speakers, like the Tannoy Live Mini directly connect to my DAC does not give those problems.
However! When I pick them up during play and they lose contact to the table, I have the same effect.
I can listen perfectly fine to cheap Logitech PC Speakers as well. And the radio in the automobile.
And to a Apple Homepod.
Also, my digital Piano, the Roland FP-30 doesnt cause me that pain.

Intriguing! Now, what is it that makes me particularly feel in so much pain?
My wild guess is that those mostly directional speakers are a big problem for me!
Do you have any idea what causes this?
I would LOVE to see your explanation or theory!

 

[Webninja]

Have you tested different frequencies via headphones?

This might narrow it down to a certain range/volume level that causes the pain you experience.

 

[JayGilb]

Reposition the table or try another table.

Are you listening to Justin Bieber during these painful episodes ?

 

[DEF]

Have you tested different frequencies via headphones?

This might narrow it down to a certain range/volume level that causes the pain you experience.

Yes I have! But I was never able to get the same feeling. It feels like the speakers are out of phase!
But how could that be? The speakers I tested were active and had bi-amping

Reposition the table or try another table.

Are you listening to Justin Bieber during these painful episodes ?

I even tried to put the speakers on my bass traps and otherwise free-standing. There was not much change.
When I played on the Piano, I found the Issue was most present in the mids and the upper highs!

 

[mhardy6647]

Do you suffer from tinnitus?

 

[Sokel]

I got the same feeling once listening to some 7 series B&W underpowered by a 30watt amp.
But that seems is not the case with you.
Referring to bass traps seems that your place is treated,right?

 

[DEF]

Do you suffer from tinnitus?

Thats such an intriguing question!
When I use earplugs to dampen noise, I sometimes hear a tinnitus sound

I got the same feeling once listening to some 7 series B&W underpowered by a 30watt amp.
But that seems is not the case with you.
Referring to bass traps seems that your place is treated,right?

Yes! I have 2 Basstraps in each corner of the room, a wonderful carpet, a large ceiling absorber and on the side of the Piano a whole Wall of absorbers!

 

[AdamG]

Have you had your hearing tested and your ears examined? Have you been exposed to a very loud sound like a gunshot in a small room? You could have torn/damaged eardrums? Diving and not fully decompressing can damage your eardrums as well. Ripped or torn eardrums can cause this.

Does your room have a fireplace? Low bass from the bigger lower tuned speakers could be resonating in that and causing a type of room pressurization that you are sensitive to? Just guessing here. Any large hollow fixtures picking up and amplifying the lower frequencies? Can you try applying a low pass filter at say 100 hz and experiment with increasing and decreasing the amount of bass produced to determine if there is any association?

 

[mhardy6647]

Thats such an intriguing question!
When I use earplugs to dampen noise, I sometimes hear a tinnitus sound



Yes! I have 2 Basstraps in each corner of the room, a wonderful carpet, a large ceiling absorber and on the side of the Piano a whole Wall of absorbers!

I do have some tinnitus. I've noticed a sensitivity to certain frequency sounds if loud enough; sort of a resonance or "ringing", which is why I asked.
As an egocentric aside, these hearing issues are very disheartening to a person (i.e., me!) who felt he had pretty acute hearing until a couple of years ago.

 

[DEF]

Have you had your hearing tested and your ears examined? Have you been exposed to a very loud sound like a gunshot in a small room? You could have torn/damaged eardrums? Diving and not fully decompressing can damage your eardrums as well. Ripped or torn eardrums can cause this.

I had my hearing tested and my ears examined. There was no swelling or sinus infection. I did make a hearing test everything was fine!

I do have some tinnitus. I've noticed a sensitivity to certain frequency sounds if loud enough; sort of a resonance or "ringing", which is why I asked.
As an egocentric aside, these hearing issues are very disheartening to a person (i.e., me!) who felt he had pretty acute hearing until a couple of years ago.

I am super sensible to sound! My ears start to ring when metal kitchenware collides! It can be a room away! I do not know if it is tinnitus.
But I was diagnosed with Autism long ago, I do not know if that makes me more sensitive or not.

What is mind-boggling to me, is that a product like https://www.tannoy.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BNZ does not cause these 'ringing' issues for me, or whatever it is that seriously gives me pain, even on low volume!

 

[AdamG]

I had my hearing tested and my ears examined. There was no swelling or sinus infection. I did make a hearing test everything was fine!

I am super sensible to sound! My ears start to ring when metal kitchenware collides! It can be a room away! I do not know if it is tinnitus.
But I was diagnosed with Autism long ago, I do not know if that makes me more sensitive or not.

What is mind-boggling to me, is that a product like https://www.tannoy.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BNZ does not cause these 'ringing' issues for me, or whatever it is that seriously gives me pain, even on low volume!

I edited and added the below and you may have missed it:

Does your room have a fireplace? Low bass from the bigger lower tuned speakers could be resonating in that and causing a type of room pressurization that you are sensitive to? Just guessing here. Any large hollow fixtures picking up and amplifying the lower frequencies? Can you try applying a low pass filter at say 100 hz and experiment with increasing and decreasing the amount of bass produced to determine if there is any association?

 

[DEF]

I edited and added the below and you may have missed it:

Does your room have a fireplace? Low bass from the bigger lower tuned speakers could be resonating in that and causing a type of room pressurization that you are sensitive to? Just guessing here. Any large hollow fixtures picking up and amplifying the lower frequencies? Can you try applying a low pass filter at say 100 hz and experiment with increasing and decreasing the amount of bass produced to determine if there is any association?

No fireplace. Large hollow fixtures? I think thats a bingo! The walls are particularly hollow and back when I had a measuring microphone I remember there were holes in the 50hz, 250Hz, and 4k range. 15 to 20k was pretty flat. I do no more have the spectrograph nor the measuring device. I did try the low pass filter and it did not help me.
However! I found that when I use Mono instead of Stereo, there is less pain! I do not know why.

 

[AlexanderM]

I had my hearing tested and my ears examined. There was no swelling or sinus infection. I did make a hearing test everything was fine!

I am super sensible to sound! My ears start to ring when metal kitchenware collides! It can be a room away! I do not know if it is tinnitus.
But I was diagnosed with Autism long ago, I do not know if that makes me more sensitive or not.

What is mind-boggling to me, is that a product like https://www.tannoy.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BNZ does not cause these 'ringing' issues for me, or whatever it is that seriously gives me pain, even on low volume!

My ears are very sensitive to too much bass, it can be painful. I would suggest turn down the bass see if that makes a difference, the Tannoys may not have as much. Just something to try.

 

[ELberto]

I feel for you and hope you get it figured out. I'll throw this out there for what it's worth: you could install something like APO Equalizer (Peace interface is good too) and try filtering out specific frequency ranges and see/hear if you can zero in on the problem area.

 

[DEF]

I decided to send back the Genelec 8010A. They may be great. But unfortunately are very sensitive to proper placement and it appears they give me a hard time listening to.
It shouldn't be too difficult to find a upgrade from the Tannoy Live Mini, right?
Would have to be less than 18cm tall to then fit under my PC Screen, cause I gave up on real monitor speakers.

 

[Berwhale]

I am super sensible to sound! My ears start to ring when metal kitchenware collides! It can be a room away! I do not know if it is tinnitus.
But I was diagnosed with Autism long ago, I do not know if that makes me more sensitive or not.

Increased sensitivity to sound is pretty common for people with Autism....

If you’re autistic, there are various different types of noise sensitivities you may experience, including:

Misophonia​

This is characterized by an emotional reaction, such as rage or anger, to certain sounds. The trigger for this is usually a soft sound that’s often related to breathing or eating, and can be connected to people who are close to you. For example, you may be driven to distraction by the sound your significant other makes when they chew their food. However, a similar noise made by someone else may not even bother you in the slightest.

Phonophobia​

Also called sonophobia or ligyrophobia, phonophobia is an unusual and persistent fear of either specific or general environmental sounds. If you suffer from phonophobia, you may try to avoid ever exposing yourself to the sounds you’re scared of, and could in time end up being housebound due to your anxiety.

Hyperacusis​

Often accompanied by tinnitus, hyperacusis is an intolerance of everyday generalized environmental noise.

Hypersensitive Hearing at Certain Frequencies

This issue often goes hand-in-hand with autism. When you’re suffering from this, it’s likely that you’re able to handle most sounds, as long as they’re at a regular level. However, this changes when the sounds change frequency, particularly when they rise above 70 decibels – say when you hear a vacuum cleaner running.

From: https://www.soundproofcow.com/soundproofing-101/noise-affect-on-autism/

 

[DEF]

Increased sensitivity to sound is pretty common for people with Autism....

If you’re autistic, there are various different types of noise sensitivities you may experience, including:

Wow! Thats very enlightening. Yes it's right. I was always wondering how others could bear vaccum cleaners. Had to get a particularly silent vacuum cleaner and before the room treatment it was unbearable to use!

 

[srrxr71]

This is a cry for help.
I have tried 2xNeumann KH120A 2 years ago and a pair of Genelec 8010A today.
Both of those speakers give me headache so bad that I am almost crying.
They were used at -40db on my ADI 2 DAC FS and at the lowest gain on the pad.

It feels like when I use them, I am many times in and out of the sweetspot.
It feels like, somebody put a blanket over my ears and keeps rubbing it while I have to focus on the music.
I have to increase the volume to understand the voice in Music.
The pain gets worse. I have to shut the unit off.

Astonishing! Different speakers, like the Tannoy Live Mini directly connect to my DAC does not give those problems.
However! When I pick them up during play and they lose contact to the table, I have the same effect.
I can listen perfectly fine to cheap Logitech PC Speakers as well. And the radio in the automobile.
And to a Apple Homepod.
Also, my digital Piano, the Roland FP-30 doesnt cause me that pain.

Intriguing! Now, what is it that makes me particularly feel in so much pain?
My wild guess is that those mostly directional speakers are a big problem for me!
Do you have any idea what causes this?
I would LOVE to see your explanation or theory!

My theory is that you are possibly sitting very close to non point source monitors. The slightest turn of your head changes the tonality drastically. It’s like a darn game finding and refinding the sweet spot. Both in terms of left and right as well as up and down.


The 8010s are nice. I have had a lot of fun with them. However they are so limited in output that you must sit close. Which also is too close for proper summing.

It’s such a fly in the ointment.

The other speakers you mentioned are not stereo so much as they throw sound out into a room. They can be decent at stereo and you never get a really solid image. You get one that’s pretty decent if you concentrate a bit assuming you have 2 of them. However they tend to be more forgiving about position.

Sitting in the sweet spot is such a headache with a lot of setups. So much so that people give up and listen in mono or just don’t care about the image.

The Genelecs are meant for that use particularly but sort of flawed in that you have to be close yet the drivers won’t sum at that distance.

If you try something like the 8331 that problem, if this is your problem goes away.

 

[DEF]

Thank you for your reply! What you said is so insightful. So it is really like this. There's a too little sweet-spot and I get irritated. I had in fact little distance. Perhaps 80cm distance.

Great! I ordered now a second Tannoy Live Mini from UK. I will try them in Stereo. Despite them require to be charged most of the time.
In the meantime I tried also the Creative Pebble V3 and it sucked so bad. They are essentially crap. Not comparable with the good Tannoy Live Mini. Researched a bit and it seems in that format, the Tannoy might been the best to get at this size.

I will update on this thread once I have it. I know it will be a bit weird.
What you say makes a lot of sense! I think the 8331 AP would do great, but its beyond my budget. For actual enjoyment, I would pay up to 4.000 EUR for a nice Headphone like the Focal Utopia, weren't they so heavy. I actually tried them. And for my ears, they were the best so far.

In that price class, I may also want a better amplifier should I go anywhere near to the Susvara's. They need more power than I can provide.

 

[srrxr71]

Thank you for your reply! What you said is so insightful. So it is really like this. There's a too little sweet-spot and I get irritated. I had in fact little distance. Perhaps 80cm distance.

Great! I ordered now a second Tannoy Live Mini from UK. I will try them in Stereo. Despite them require to be charged most of the time.
In the meantime I tried also the Creative Pebble V3 and it sucked so bad. They are essentially crap. Not comparable with the good Tannoy Live Mini. Researched a bit and it seems in that format, the Tannoy might been the best to get at this size.

I will update on this thread once I have it. I know it will be a bit weird.
What you say makes a lot of sense! I think the 8331 AP would do great, but its beyond my budget. For actual enjoyment, I would pay up to 4.000 EUR for a nice Headphone like the Focal Utopia, weren't they so heavy. I actually tried them. And for my ears, they were the best so far.

In that price class, I may also want a better amplifier should I go anywhere near to the Susvara's. They need more power than I can provide.

Honestly if you hear 8331 you will forget headphones.

The 8331 is more detailed than headphones. You might wonder why. The reason is space. Instruments just hang out in front of you. You hear everything in its own space. You notice things which the headphones cannot show you in the limited space between your ears. Instruments get smashed up together.

I have never tried $4000 headphones but I have tried $1200 ones. Nothing too special. Also a friend of mine tried his brother’s Orpheus. I did not get one word about how they sound. That tells me enough of what I need to know. Of course this is an opinion thing. I cannot imagine a music lover sitting in front of any Genelec ones and not have something to say about them.

Also headphones are uncomfortable in their own right. This thing on your head plus the heat and the ear pain. This is why for headphone I just get Bose. Blasphemous I know but comfort matters. No point hurting while listening.

One thing that you can try in the meantime is to toe out the 8010 and live with the limited output but sit further from them. I know they sound so good you want to strap them to your ears but they won’t sum properly but you can aim from a consistent axis. If they are stationary to your ears you won’t have limited sweet spot it will move with your head turning. But your head won’t bear that weight.

If you toe them out maybe you will get less highs but your sweet spot will be more forgiving.

Not exactly toe “out” but maybe toed in less than pointing them at your ears.


So I have 8341 now and this balance between a tight but very sweet sweet spot and a more forgiving but not as sweet sweet spot still exists with them.

Right now they are pointing at my nose. The correct spot is so sweet. In fact it’s kind of obvious so you will naturally fix your head to that spot. Still turning the head is fine just left to right position matters a lot.

The alternative is to have a wider sweet spot but center vocals are not so razor focused. Finding an obvious perfect position is much harder but it’s decent for a few inches left and right. Maybe even 6” and then the center moves with your head. But the quality of that center is lower when you finally move that far.

In the more focused set up the center moves very fast and then collapses with side to side movements and the quality decreases rapidly.

It’s also interesting that in my experience many systems are forgiving of turning the head in terms of center image position but tonality declines rapidly.

Actually a pair of Apple HomePods is more forgiving about turns and side to side was forgiving. Maybe its wide dispersion?

To hear voice in recordings some room treatment is a must. With small setup you may need only 2 panels on the ceiling and maybe one or 2 behind/around each monitor.