• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Mahler - Symphony No. 2

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,787
Location
NYC
The only Beethoven piano sonatas I have in my collection are the late sonatas (27-32), performed by Charles Rosen. I'm no expert on that repertoire, by any means, so I have no idea where he ranks in the grand scheme of things, but I enjoy them.
I was a fan of his. He was not only a talented pianist, he was brilliant man. The last time I heard him live was a wonderful recital at the NYPL.
 

Inner Space

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 18, 2020
Messages
1,285
Likes
2,938
When it comes to Beethoven piano concertos, Smashkenazy Ashkenazy is one of my favorites. Full of emotion, fire and dynamics.

You bet. Personal favorites too - except one time: I cranked up the Appassionata and my dog had a seizure. He recovered fine. That dog had nine lives, including getting run over by a funeral procession.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
I still like Emil Gillels, unfortunately DG did him few favours when recording his final Beethoven cycle but I love his playing and value that above worrying about technical things
 

rdenney

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,235
Likes
3,856
For some reason I enjoyed listening to the YT transfer above on my TV more than the Sony CD transfer on my main rig. If you can't stream youtube to your stereo, you can find those transfers here:


(I'm pretty sure the LP is in the public domain now.)
Thanks. But they are not in the public domain, if they came out in 1956. They would still have been in copyright protection from their first term in 1979 when the law in the U.S. changed to extend copyright protection to 75 years after the publication date for corporate copyright holders. Those 28-year terms could be renewed once, so a recording has to have been made before 1923 to be absolutely sure it's in the public domain. And if the copyright was not renewed, it would have to been published before 1950 to have made it to the public domain before the law changed. The music itself is not in the public domain--Vaughan Williams composed the 4th in 1935 as I recall, but it was protected in Great Britain where it would have retained copyright through his life and for 75 years thereafter. (The 1978 Copyright Act was intended to align U.S. copyright law with common international copyright law at the time.) He died in 1958, so we have a dozen more years to go before his works become public.

But that doesn't mean I'm not downloading it, even though I've already found and bought a sealed library-service version on Ebay. :)

Story about Ashkenazy: When I lived in San Antonio about thirty years ago, I attended a symphony concert in which Ashkenazy was the guest artist. He had arrived the previous day and rehearsed with the orchestra that morning, and had found that the piano (a Baldwin) provided by the symphony was "unsuitable". During the day, the powers that be hit the phones with the movers and shakers in the Symphony League, and they found a lady in Alamo Heights (the wealthy area) who happened to own a 12-foot Boesendorfer Imperial. The symphony paid to transport it to the hall, tune it, and after the series, transport it back and tune it again. Mr. Ashkenazy made an unanticipated announcement from the stage before his performance, telling the story and bringing the lady to the front to be publicly admired. So, all in one day--what was apparently a hissy fit about a piano he didn't like, but also a very warm display of gratitude to a lady who made her $50,000 (at the time) piano available. A high-dynamic-range individual. I don't recall what he played, funny enough. (I also heard George Bolet play a Boesendorfer on another occasion, and he made that Imperial positively roar. Ashkenazy's playing was not quite so memorable, but the occasion was.)

The strongest live performance I've ever heard of a Beethoven piano work was Emanuel Ax playing the stuffing out of the 5th.

Rick "still doesn't have an opinion of the best Mahler 2, however" Denney
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,424
Likes
4,030
Location
Pacific Northwest
... Story about Ashkenazy: When I lived in San Antonio about thirty years ago, I attended a symphony concert in which Ashkenazy was the guest artist. He had arrived the previous day and rehearsed with the orchestra that morning, and had found that the piano (a Baldwin) provided by the symphony was "unsuitable". ...
Great story. I have a Chesky recording of Earl Wild playing Chopin Etudes on a Baldwin grand and I agree with Ashkenazy's assessment. The piano sounds just wrong, or "off", and it's not subtle, so I find that recording hard to listen to. That said, it may just be "unsuitable" micing or recording of a perfectly fine piano.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
The discussion about musical interpretation is interesting and enjoyable. One of the characteristics of art is that it means something slightly (or very) different to everyone and we all take something unique from it at the same time as having a shared experience.
Does an artist own what people will take from their work? There are numerous ways to interpret any work and generally I find something in all of them worth listening to. There is an undeniable value and interest in the composers own interpretation or of conductors favoured by the composer. However, musical tastes and performing styles evolve and musicians will make their own interpretation. And as with most things there is a generational element, today's revolutionaries changing the world are tomorrow's conservatives.
I must admit I am quite conservative and like the musical styles I grew up with most. I know nowadays it is common to criticize the tradition of Karajan, Bohm, Szell, Jochum etc but despite the modern HIP orthodoxy I still listen more to recordings which pre-date the HIP movement. But that's just my preference.
 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,209
Likes
7,588
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Great story. I have a Chesky recording of Earl Wild playing Chopin Etudes on a Baldwin grand and I agree with Ashkenazy's assessment. The piano sounds just wrong, or "off", and it's not subtle, so I find that recording hard to listen to. That said, it may just be "unsuitable" micing or recording of a perfectly fine piano.
Baldwin pianos are "off" all the time. Someone used to a Steinway or Bosendorfer or Bechstein would find a Baldwin "off" on account of their metallic character.
 

fordiebianco

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 11, 2020
Messages
355
Likes
752
Location
British Isles
Rather than just bitch, why don't I start with what I felt was good enough to keep: his Szymanowski CDs are very good.

What other Rattle recordings would people say are actually essential rather than just competent (worth spending limited time on among all the other choices of recordings)?
To stay on topic, I have a few recordings of Mahler #2, but Rattle with the Berliner Philharmoniker (Royal, Kozena) is my personal favourite. Both interpretation and sound.
 

Daverz

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
1,294
Likes
1,451
Didn't know the random hate towards Rattle was still a thing in 2021 :facepalm:.
It's no wonder why the classical scene is seen as... Yeah, you know what I mean.

Oh, FFS, I said that I thought Rattle was a mediocre conductor. Somehow this has been turned into a crime against humanity.
 

JJB70

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
2,905
Likes
6,148
Location
Singapore
I must admit I think Rattle is over rated. He certainly isn't a bad conductor, and some of his work is truly outstanding. He did a tremendous job at the CBSO. However I think he has been hyped and of course anyone getting the Berlin job faces demands and expectations. And discussing an artist's work and offering negative opinions isn't hate or an ad hominem attack. Indeed were that to be the case then there would be no point discussing art and artists.
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,156
Likes
1,576
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
This is sort-of why I was seeking recommendations. I've found that often, with Classical music, that the first version you listen to can color your judgement for subsequent interpretations. So I figure it's best to start with a solid work. Sound-wise, a bad recording can kill a great performance, however a great recording won't save a bad performance.
How True!!!

I feel like an amateur about Mahler, but love Solti, Bernstein, Rattle and a few others. None are truly bad, but some just have something maybe the pace or even the sound quality, that draws me in "more".....

I really need to listen to all of them a few more times, but wow that takes SOOO much time..
 

Daverz

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2019
Messages
1,294
Likes
1,451
For some reason I enjoyed listening to the YT transfer above on my TV more than the Sony CD transfer on my main rig. If you can't stream youtube to your stereo, you can find those transfers here:


(I'm pretty sure the LP is in the public domain now.)

Following up to my old post, there's now a fantastic transfer of the Mitropoulos recording of the Vaughan Williams Symphony No. 4 in the new Sony Mitropoulos box. I've been streaming it on Qobuz.
 

beagleman

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
1,156
Likes
1,576
Location
Pittsburgh Pa
Agreed. IMHO, it is Rattle's early one with the CBSO that is most interesting, albeit still not at Klemperer's level.
Just curious what year are BOTH of Rattle's recordings?

And maybe a nice idea, if we would all list the year or the recording WITH the conductor. I have trouble remembering all this stuff and have to look up so much...lol
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,273
Likes
9,787
Location
NYC
Just curious what year are BOTH of Rattle's recordings?

And maybe a nice idea, if we would all list the year or the recording WITH the conductor. I have trouble remembering all this stuff and have to look up so much...lol
Rattle, CBSO - 1097
Rattle, Berlin - 2010
 

amadeuswus

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
277
Likes
265
Location
Massachusetts
I must admit I think Rattle is over rated. He certainly isn't a bad conductor, and some of his work is truly outstanding. He did a tremendous job at the CBSO. However I think he has been hyped and of course anyone getting the Berlin job faces demands and expectations. And discussing an artist's work and offering negative opinions isn't hate or an ad hominem attack. Indeed were that to be the case then there would be no point discussing art and artists.
Off-topic from his musical merit, but I think Rattle deserves a little credit for having a sense of humor (maybe absent from some maestros?). He said about the dead acoustics at the Barbican (pre-makeover) that within a few minutes into a rehearsal, one loses all will to live. And in a Grieg Peer Gynt rehearsal with a German youth orchestra (viewable on the Berlin Philharmonic's Digital Concert Hall), he told the orchestra that he's waving the stick faster and faster but they aren't getting any faster--(in an aside) "Welcome to my life."
 
Top Bottom