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Mahler - Symphony No. 2

Robin L

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This ought to help, the very first recording of Mahler's Second symphony, 1924 [acoustic], Oscar Fried, Berliner Staatskappelle. Sound refurbished 2019. I'd say more Klemperer than Walter. When Walter got older, he started to bathe everything in schmaltz. I'll still take Lenny's inspired self indulgence over deliberately didactic music/lecture demonstrations. [Don't mind me, I've soaked up over fifty years of Classical Musical criticism---hyperbole is my second or third name.]

 
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xaviescacs

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This is interesting. Now I realize that I've made a major imprecision, betraying my own line of thinking.

There are two different themes here: one is the historical point of view, that is, trying to understand how original performances were. That makes us close to the composer's intention, or original intention, or original facts.

Having said that, one must recognize though that no human being is 100 % certain about his creations, and quite often composers like other's interpretations more than their owns. Mahler himself was very insecure about his compositions, and made changes during the years: changed tempi, movement orders, etc. That is a sign of a pursue of perfection that deviates clearly from the classical and romantic periods were pieces were rarely revised.

A different theme however is the quest for understanding what has been written, the score, alongside with its historical context, etc. Something that can only be done after some time. The goal of this line is to extract the maximum out of a score, interpreting what has been written. My opinion is that the best performances of a piece come from this approach, rather than trying to reproduce the original. Best in the sense that they are more informative and insightful, revealing more about the music and his author. In this category I find Klemperer's and Abbado's performances inferior to those Rattle or Tilson Thomas, and specially of Boulez's what I think is the most revealing and expressive one. In relation to the original performances however, the story is possibly the opposite, as the last posts highlight. ANd that is my mistake before, confusing the best interpretation with a piece with the composers intention. Those are simply two different things.

Well, anyway, thanks guys for your thoughts.
 

Robin L

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mSpot

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Do you know for certain that his 2nd is similar to the original? Do you think Klemperer tries to reproduce the same he heard? To covey us Mahler's original interpretation?
Of course I don't know, but I'm making the point that since Klemperer knew and worked with Mahler, that makes for strong case that he isn't doing it wrong. If you're going to say that Rattle and Tilson Thomas have a better understanding of Mahler, you need to build up your argument. It's also entirely possible that Mahler may find Rattle's interpretation both a bit foreign and perfectly valid at the same time. Composers are often delighted to see performers interpret their music in unexpected ways.
 

Daverz

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Of course I don't know, but I'm making the point that since Klemperer knew and worked with Mahler, that makes for strong case that he isn't doing it wrong. If you're going to say that Rattle and Tilson Thomas have a better understanding of Mahler, you need to build up your argument. It's also entirely possible that Mahler may find Rattle's interpretation both a bit foreign and perfectly valid at the same time. Composers are often delighted to see performers interpret their music in unexpected ways.

I think the "X worked with Y" thing is usually overstated. Klemperer, Walter, Mengelberg, and Fried were strong personalities, and their Mahler is very much their own. I do think the serious Mahler collector should have both the Klemperer/Philharmonia and Walter/NYP Mahler 2nds.

As for Rattle, his popularity baffles me.
 

xaviescacs

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If you're going to say that Rattle and Tilson Thomas have a better understanding of Mahler, you need to build up your argument.
Well, as I've said in another post, I find Boulez's recording to be the best, and I think he is able to extract more than anyone else all that the music has. In that sense, I think he understand better than anyone else I've heard what those scores contain. That's not perhaps understanding Mahler, but what he wrote.

I've tried to post some musical examples in other posts, but I don't have the time to fully explain myself using precise examples. In general terms, more contrast, a better equilibrium between sections, precise layering of voices, without overemphasizing none too much, not being afraid of exploring unpleasant feelings... Lets leave it there. :)
 

killdozzer

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I highly and wholeheartedly recommend this version:
Mahler%2BSymphony%2B2%2BVanska.jpg


Vanska really pushes the right buttons for me. I highly appreciate all of his work.

Of course, you have to hear it and see for yourself.
 
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One thing that complicates my choice (Rattle) is that I was discovering Mahler at the same time (I was in college checking out the library's CDs when I was penniless). It started with Haitink's Symphony 7 on Philips, which is a favorite to this day. Though I've come to love others, such as Sinopoli's 7th on DG.
I also discovered Messiaen at this time and still love Rattle's Turangalîla. And I've grown to love Myung-whun Chung, Boulez, and others too.

Part of it is the technical brilliance of the Rattle, and the high quality of the EMI and "4D" DG recordings back then. I'd never heard music so clearly before (unless a friend treated me to the SFS at Davies).

On the other hand, I have not warmed to other versions. I don't like Rattle's live version of the 7th, and I've never liked Bernstein's recordings much, even though I recognize he was a great champion of Mahler.
 
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xaviescacs

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Yes, he's mediocre in all sorts of music.
Trying to be empathic with this statement, I would say that he is so versatile that he isn't a specialist in anything. I like his Bach very much though. Register in the Berliner Philharmoniker Digital Concert Hall and give a try at Bach's passions.
 

JanesJr1

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Anybody have any recommendations for Mahler's 2nd sym? Preferably ones that are very good performances and also well recorded. I only have Sym. No. 9 currently, and would like to add few more works by him.
Zubin Mehta in Vienna in the 70's is a classic and well-enough recorded. On the bright side but good. But for a good performance that is also a sonic spectacular, Bernstein with NY Phil in the 80's is a reference-quality recording.
 

fordiebianco

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Yes, he's mediocre in all sorts of music.
Please explain: ad-hominem attacks on conductors puzzle me. Isn't it an artist's licence to interpret music the way she/he sees it?
 

Robin L

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Please explain: ad-hominem attacks on conductors puzzle me. Isn't it an artist's licence to interpret music the way she/he sees it?
"Music Critics can be so Bitchy".
Alfred Brendel, "Luncheon At The Music Center", L.A.'s classical radio's noon hour show, mid 1970's.
 

Brab

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I was at a live performance with Daniel Harding and the Orchestre de Paris. Thought it was wonderful. I believe there is a recording.
 

Daverz

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Please explain: ad-hominem attacks on conductors puzzle me. Isn't it an artist's licence to interpret music the way she/he sees it?

That's not what ad hominem means.

Sure, Rattle has the right to his mediocre interpretations of music.
 
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