Magico Ultimate vs Magico M6

[oldsysop]

Loudspeaker: 1000 pounds (454 kg) each

 

[HenryB]

While Magico's cabinet work is rather nice, I've not seen them measure any better than other well designed speakers in the few analyses I've found for them.

Take a look at the S5 THD measurements (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153). This is as good as THD measurements ever capture by SS in the NRC. And these are the old S5, still with a Scan Speak tweeter. Keep in mind these are sealed and pistonic throughout the entire audible range. Frq plots show only one part of the equation. The nonlinear distortion plots is what will separates the men from the boys. Nothing I have seen, with 8+ frq plots, come close. Certainly not for $3000 (or $30K).

 

[ng411s4]

There is something that can be done in DIY for that kind of money but only if you know what are you doing.

How much do you think this cost to make ?

https://imgur.com/a/oVPRa9f

Very impressive! Congratulations!

 

[FeddyLost]

Nothing I have seen, with 8+ frq plots, come close. Certainly not for $3000

In DIY segment one can make rigid and inert multilayer box, but there's just not much off-the-shelf drivers suitable for closed box, and, for sure, good distortion is the thing that DIYer must find out himself.
I'd like to see acoustic phase plot, but even THD below -45 dB from 70 Hz is nice for good big monitors.

 

[BillG]

Take a look at the S5 THD measurements (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153). This is as good as THD measurements ever capture by SS in the NRC. And these are the old S5, still with a Scan Speak tweeter. Keep in mind these are sealed and pistonic throughout the entire audible range. Frq plots show only one part of the equation. The nonlinear distortion plots is what will separates the men from the boys. Nothing I have seen, with 8+ frq plots, come close. Certainly not for $3000 (or $30K).

Taking into account cost vs performance, I'm still not seeing a great value proposition in these - that may not be important to others, but it certainly is to me. While they're indeed very well engineered, we tend to rather immune to hearing distortion unless it's extreme. Therefore, I certainly wouldn't toss $38K USD at them for the privilege of knowing that nothing is there, in terms of distortion, that I most likely wouldn't hear from lesser engineered speaker with a bit more distortion anyway.

 

[detlev24]

Take a look at the S5 THD measurements (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153). This is as good as THD measurements ever capture by SS in the NRC. And these are the old S5, still with a Scan Speak tweeter. Keep in mind these are sealed and pistonic throughout the entire audible range. Frq plots show only one part of the equation. The nonlinear distortion plots is what will separates the men from the boys. Nothing I have seen, with 8+ frq plots, come close. Certainly not for $3000 (or $30K).

Well, it also depends on how the measurements are presented...

There is no THD information below 50 Hz. The lower limit of charts A and B is at -45 dB SPL, which equals to (relative) ~0.6% THD.

THD at 50 Hz is at roughly 4.5% in Chart A [90 dB SPL @ 2m]; and at roughly 6.3% in Chart B [95 dB SPL @ 2m].

These certainly are good results but since Magico states the lower limit of the S5's frequency response to be at 20 Hz, the lack of more comprehensive measurements is not beneficial.

[Furthermore, there might be imperfections around the crossover frequencies; as the frequency response measurements do imply.]

More information would be required.

 

[tuga]

I thought that the Ultimate horn was just a "static" showpiece. It looks like something out of a cartoon.

 

[Purité Audio]

Heard the ‘Ultimates’ at the Munich show a few years back, a very controlled demonstration 20 minutes mostly innocuous music you know the sort of thing, I remeber walking from there to the Tune Anima room which coincidentally was playing the same tune.
Keith

 

[andreasmaaan]

Take a look at the S5 THD measurements (https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153). This is as good as THD measurements ever capture by SS in the NRC. And these are the old S5, still with a Scan Speak tweeter. Keep in mind these are sealed and pistonic throughout the entire audible range. Frq plots show only one part of the equation. The nonlinear distortion plots is what will separates the men from the boys. Nothing I have seen, with 8+ frq plots, come close. Certainly not for $3000 (or $30K).

I agree that those are exceptional THD measurements, and indeed it's an exceptional speaker.

However, here are a couple of more affordable speakers Soundstage has measured that compete in terms of THD (and other metrics):

• KEF R11
• Revel F206 (the F208 would be the fairer comparison in terms of size, but it hasn't been measured under the same conditions).

I'm not sure the S5 offers much that these speakers don't. Lower distortion in a narrow region of the upper bass? Doesn't seem worth paying 10x the price for.

Anyway, this can only be a limited comparison since we don't have detailed enough measurements to properly compare. There may be other aspects of the S5's design that show it to be better (or worse of course) than these measurements suggest.

However, I think it's fair to say that Magico's speakers are excellent conventional designs and that, notwithstanding the inherent limitations such designs entail, they do extremely well. But their speakers are low-value propositions compared to competitors (which FWIW is fine in my book given the quality of their speakers).

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The dream would be for Amir to test/review/measure one of these thoroughly. I shudder at the logistics to measure a 1000 lbs beast.
be it as it may, this speaker is brutally expensive for what it does. I would say that the Revel Salon is the benchmark, then does this one measure better? Does it perform better in some areas? Looking at those FR graphs, I am tempted to say no...
Now if we start including active speakers, it bears some questions. A Beolab 90 is arguably better and it is an audio system, complete.. with the ability to do parties or serious, focused , audiophile listening .. and it is only p) $90,000 for the pair ... You could purchase an entire Beolab 90 5.x system for the price of a pair of that Magico, 5.x not Atmos , I would not place those Beo 90 on the ceiling , Then again, you are not in HT or Multi-channel , being a person whose looking for a Magico
Or would these sound as good as , say a Dutch and Dutch 8C, one of the most formidable measuring and by most accounts, sounding audio systems.? The 8C can can be made to be flat like a pancake in-room from 20 to 20,000 KHz ... Oh! it can play loud too, very much : 35 Hz at 105 dB is no slouch.
Or a pair of Genelec 1236A SAM Monitor with a pair of Genelec 7382 Subwoofer for $60,000.. I am willing to bet that the Genelec monsters are more capable in the SPL department than the Magico M-"any number" with their subs .. and the Genelec entire system would cost a paltry $60,000 (Pair of Monitor + Pair of Subwoofers) at the very least ... The Magicos with their subs is likely around the $400,000 mark... There are simply too many choices that are potentially better than the M-watever and less expenaive too ...
With that kind of money, I'd build a house for the HT room and separated Audio room... and choose some of the above speakers systems mentioned above.

Then again if you want to are researching dark background, the synergy of matching these speakers with the amps and cables or the wide soundstage and the PRaTT.. You are hard pressed to do better than these Magicos .. Although , I don't believe they are that organic with all this Aluminum and other metal and minerals ... ROTFL

Knowing what I know now these speakers and similar products aimed at wealthy audiophiles, do not make me blink.. A few years ago , they would have been the stuff of wet dreams ...

Peace

 

[andreasmaaan]

A few years ago , they would have been the stuff of wet dreams ...

A visceral metaphor!

 

[HenryB]

Taking into account cost vs performance, I'm still not seeing a great value proposition in these - that may not be important to others, but it certainly is to me. While they're indeed very well engineered, we tend to rather immune to hearing distortion unless it's extreme. Therefore, I certainly wouldn't toss $38K USD at them for the privilege of knowing that nothing is there, in terms of distortion, that I most likely wouldn't hear from lesser engineered speaker with a bit more distortion anyway.

I see. So when I point out to a significant measurable data, like THD, you dismiss its value, yet you point out to “chewed up response at 100 Hz - 300 Hz” - in what looks like an unsmoothed response - something that for sure no one can hear (and probably a measurement artifact, since it is in a bandpass). I am afraid this argument will go nowhere...

In terms of value, to each is own. I own both the Revel (F228Be), and the Magico A3 (soon the A5). Measurements and SQ aside (Despite HK reports, it will take an experienced listener 2 sec to hear the A3 superiority), the quality of construction, and therefore pride of ownership is of a different league altogether. To some people, there is value in that as well.

 

[paddycrow]

I see. So when I point out to a significant measurable data, like THD, you dismiss its value, yet you point out to “chewed up response at 100 Hz - 300 Hz” - in what looks like an unsmoothed response - something that for sure no one can hear (and probably a measurement artifact, since it is in a bandpass). I am afraid this argument will go nowhere...

In terms of value, to each is own. I own both the Revel (F228Be), and the Magico A3 (soon the A5). Measurements and SQ aside (Despite HK reports, it will take an experienced listener 2 sec to hear the A3 superiority), the quality of construction, and therefore pride of ownership is of a different league altogether. To some people, there is value in that as well.

The A5 is intriguing. At $22K and no discount available to me, I don't see a pair of them in my future.

At 180 lbs apiece, I recommend a good dolly for moving them around!

 

[andreasmaaan]

Despite HK reports, it will take an experienced listener 2 sec to hear the A3 superiority

What are "HK reports"?

 

[paddycrow]

What are "HK reports"?

Harman Kardon?

 

[Snoochers]

Oh, but they matter.

To make a wooden cabinet as acoustically inert as aluminium cabinet is extremely difficult. There are many speaker driver manufacturers out there but their drivers usually must multitask to adhere to the greater audience. Making your loudspeaker from scratch gives you the opportunity to specialize drivers for intended purpose only. Until someone points to a model of 3000 bucks/pair of factory made loudspeaker that can match in every way to Magico M6 "with a little eq", i think there is not much to say.

There is something that can be done in DIY for that kind of money but only if you know what are you doing.

How much do you think this costs to make ?

https://imgur.com/a/oVPRa9f

They matter to the extent that they improve performance that we can measure. Without better measurements, what use is all this "good stuff"?

Honestly if you show me spinorama data from the Magico stuff that beats the best Revel/KEF stuff, then I'll shut up. Until then, all the "nice stuff" that comes from Magico and other custom shops is just "nice to haves" or fluff that don't actually improve objective performance.

 

[HenryB]

They matter to the extent that they improve performance that we can measure. Without better measurements, what use is all this "good stuff"?

Honestly if you show me spinorama data from the Magico stuff that beats the best Revel/KEF stuff, then I'll shut up. Until then, all the "nice stuff" that comes from Magico and other custom shops is just "nice to haves" or fluff that don't actually improve objective performance.

Spinorama is not the end-all.
The Spinorama doesn’t show you anything about nonlinear distortion, which is a significant part of the overall SQ (what happens when SPL increases, etc.). The same speaker in MDF enclosure would sound completely different than if it was made out of fiberglass or aluminum, yet it would look the same on the Spinorama. And, yes, it is objective, you can measure it, if you only choose to.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Spinorama is not the end-all.

I agree.

The Spinorama doesn’t show you anything about nonlinear distortion, which is a significant part of the overall SQ (what happens when SPL increases, etc.).

Knowing that your F228Be has similar or lower levels of nonlinear distortion to your A3, this is unlikely to explain your perception that the latter sounds clearly better. What in terms of objective metrics would you suggest distinguishes the A3?

The same speaker in MDF enclosure would sound completely different than if it was made out of fiberglass or aluminum, yet it would look the same on the Spinorama.

How would it sound different? Which measurements would show this? Given you claim it would sound "completely" different, I assume you believe that the objective differences are not subtle?

 

[HenryB]

Knowing that your F228Be has similar or lower levels of nonlinear distortion to your A3, this is unlikely to explain your perception that the latter sounds clearly better. What in terms of objective metrics would you suggest distinguishes the A3?

Never seen a F228Be nonlinear distortion (Nor of an A3), can you point to them?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Never seen a F228Be nonlinear distortion (Nor of an A3), can you point to them?

No. But we know that the A1 and M126Be have similar levels of distortion. How about I replace knowing with "inferring" in my question?