Magico S2 up on Stereophile

[Avp1]

Or course but I am saying that for an expensive speaker we should expect near full range regardless of design.

You cannot overcome physics law. Here is an example of sealed speaker reaching 20Hz:

 

[Mart68]

Blade 2 Meta is ported. It is unsurprising that it extends deeper than a sealed box.


F3 at 40ish hz with a 12dB/oct roll-off means you actually have pretty good extension in-room vs a ported speaker with the same F3. Not really bass-shy in real life. Free field, maybe.

On paper but that's why I quoted the reviewer who was clearly expecting deeper bass for the asking price. Which isn't an unreasonable expectation for 37 grand. I quite like Magico in general, they get a lot right, it's just the value proposition isn't there.

 

[Lsc]

Or course but I am saying that for an expensive speaker we should expect near full range regardless of design.

I agree. All expensive speakers should sound the same. I actually think they should look the same as well.

Edit: they should all be active as well.

 

[Everett T]

You cannot overcome physics law. Here is an example of sealed speaker reaching 20Hz:

Active/DSP will allow smaller speakers to reach that low, albeit SPL limited compared to a 6'+ 30"deep speaker.

 

[Putter]

The theory supporting acoustic suspension speakers, as I understand it, is that the 12db/octave roll off vs. 24 db/octave for ported provides a more natural room reinforcement and eliminates port noise which typically shows up around 800 to 1000 Khz as well as group delay issues.

This has largely been supplanted by the knowledge that room bass reinforcement is not uniform and that certain frequencies are reinforced by as much as 10-15 db and others are suppressed similarly. Because of this, multiple subwoofers are used to provide more even bass reinforcement and digital correction to cut the bass peaks.

As regards to port noise, it can be reduced either by careful design or electronically.

Notwithstanding there is an argument to made for using a stereo system sans subs and digital correction that there is better room bass reinforcement with acoustic suspension speakers than ported although I do like the passive radiator design because it largely eliminates the port noise issue.

Corrected as per dfuller for ported, but I haven't found evidence that passives roll off faster, but do have have a tuning frequency that has a faster roll off.

 

[dfuller]

The theory supporting acoustic suspension speakers, as I understand it, is that the 12db/octave roll off vs. 18 db/octave for ported/passive radiator provides a more natural room reinforcement and eliminates port noise which typically shows up around 800 to 1000 Khz as well as group delay issues.

This has largely been supplanted by the knowledge that room bass reinforcement is not uniform and that certain frequencies are reinforced by as much as 10-15 db and others are suppressed similarly. Because of this, multiple subwoofers are used to provide more even bass reinforcement and digital correction to cut the bass peaks.

As regards to port noise, it can be reduced either by careful design or electronically.

Notwithstanding there is an argument to made for using a stereo system sans subs and digital correction that there is better room bass reinforcement with acoustic suspension speakers than ported although I do like the passive radiator design because it largely eliminates the port noise issue.

Slight correction; Ports are generally 24dB/oct and PRs are 30dB/oct.

 

[Multicore]

Almost all towers still need subs.

Then I'll get cheaper smaller boxes

 

[Avp1]

Active/DSP will allow smaller speakers to reach that low, albeit SPL limited compared to a 6'+ 30"deep speaker.

No DSP will allow small speaker to produce 100dB at 20Hz. And these 100dB is a minimum required to feel low bass, not just measure it with microphone.

 

[Everett T]

No DSP will allow small speaker to produce 100dB at 20Hz. And these 100dB is a minimum required to feel low bass, not just measure it with microphone.

That's a silly qualifier as it doesn't take distance into a account at the MLP.. 100db at 15' isn't common among full range speakers. Also, reread my post, I specifically say SPL limited, not lacking, as you do not need 100dbs to feel 20hz bass

 

[Axo1989]

Or course but I am saying that for an expensive speaker we should expect near full range regardless of design.

Emotionally maybe, but you can’t logically expect physics to operate ‘regardless of design’.

 

[Axo1989]

Forty grand for big towers and I still need subs?

Not really ‘big towers’ though. Smallest in their S range. About the same size as my Audio Physic (a bit shorter, a bit wider) which I’d definitely call medium size, not at all imposing.

And yes there is an S sub (with DSP) for those who like Magico and have the budget. Whether you need it will depend on your music preferences (I would feel the need, probably, but I haven’t added subs yet myself so it’s a need deferred).

 

[Keith_W]

I was going to post a new thread until ASR alerted me that this one exists I thought that this quote by Magico designer Alon Wolf was worth discussing:

"In JA's February 2020 Stereophile review of the Magico M2, he queried Alon Wolf about sealed vs ported designs. "What you gain from the sealed alignment is, your group delay goes down to almost nothing," Wolf explained. Group delay is the time it takes for different parts of the frequency spectrum to pass out into the room. In sealed enclosures, all frequencies arrive at your ears at nearly the same time. In ported designs, the port can introduce timing delays because bass frequencies routed through the port arrive later than the direct sound from the woofers. This can smear transients and make bass sound looser and less precise, Wolf says: "Everything becomes much clearer, not just in the bass but across the midrange as well."

Wolf says he fully appreciates the appeal of ported designs—"that big, full, charging bass"—but he argues that the tradeoffs aren't worth it: port noise, uneven LF response with certain notes emphasized, and the tendency for bass levels to rise disproportionately as volume increases, throwing off the tonal balance. Once you hear the quality of the bass in sealed designs, Wolf says, "it's difficult to go back."

(Emphasis mine)

I'm not so sure about that. His comments were discussed further in a recent article in Headphone Sty (which I won't link to because of ASR rules - if you want to read it, go there and look for "HiFi Brand Founder Claims Most Speakers Fake Their Bass"). As an aside, this article appears pretty nicely researched and doesn't seem AI'ed like some of their other articles, but I may be wrong

That Headphone Sty article points out that group delay detectability thresholds are way above the GD introduced by ported speakers, but with the proviso that these thresholds are extrapolated. We have seen Liski, Makivirta et al showing that GD thresholds are already shooting up exponentially at 100Hz (about 25ms), and that's with headphones and test signals. In a ported speaker, that should theoretically be inaudible.

They also found a post on ASR by @voodooless who points out that rising GD is simply minimum-phase behaviour, although I am not so sure about that. Yes you do get rising GD with minphase, but surely the port introduces excess phase which might raise the GD even more?

 

[mieswall]

I heard many Magico models both M and S. Unlike other brands they all sounded good with proper electronics

I heard the S2 at the house of a friend. Really impressive, one of the best I've experienced. Crystaline. A good LS3/5A he also had sounded like a toy in comparison, even with both speakers in a small room and either at high or low volume.

 

[Avp1]

I heard the S2 at the house of a friend. Really impressive, one of the best I've experienced. Crystaline. A good LS3/5A he also had sounded like a toy in comparison, even with both speakers in a small room and either at high or low volume.

LS3/5A is a toy for 1/20th of a price.

 

[voodooless]

They also found a post on ASR by @voodooless who points out that rising GD is simply minimum-phase behaviour, although I am not so sure about that. Yes you do get rising GD with minphase, but surely the port introduces excess phase which might raise the GD even more?

A port can have some additional ringing that is not minimum phase. But if well designed this should be inaudible. The main contributor of group delay however, is not that. It’s simply the frequency response of the ported system, most notably the faster drop at the end. The room will do the rest.

Wolf explained. Group delay is the time it takes for different parts of the frequency spectrum to pass out into the room.

This is simply not true.

In ported designs, the port can introduce timing delays because bass frequencies routed through the port arrive later than the direct sound from the woofers

Look at the difference in path length vs the wavelengths.. it simply doesn’t add up.

port noise,

Mostly overcome with proper design and engineering.

uneven LF response with certain notes emphasized,

Isn’t a thing generall. Again: design it properly, and this doesn’t happen.

and the tendency for bass levels to rise disproportionately as volume increases,

Also not really a common issue. A closed system has similar issues due to driver non-linearities.

Once you hear the quality of the bass in sealed designs, Wolf says, "it's difficult to go back."

It’s all a bunch of fud and misinformation. As per usual, the reality is that it highly depends of the environment and design constraints and above all the competence of the designer.. Both sealed and ported systems can sound absolutely excellent, with many examples of both out in the wild. They are both compromise, and you’ll simply have to choose one over the other depending on your design goals.

 

[Keith_W]

A port can have some additional ringing that is not minimum phase. But if well designed this should be inaudible. The main contributor of group delay however, is not that. It’s simply the frequency response of the ported system, most notably the faster drop at the end. The room will do the rest.

I was still skeptical of this claim, so I had a chat to my friend and we modelled a ported and sealed speaker in WinISD using the same driver. We then created a Linkwitz Transform to match the amplitude of both speakers.

Blue is sealed, green is ported. It was pretty difficult to design that LW transform but I got it close enough.

And the Group Delay is very different.

Anyway I see that you have done your own WinISD modelling here and you posted an explanation there. I think I will have to ditch my belief that the advantage of sealed is lower group delay. That's wrong.

 

[voodooless]

And the Group Delay is very different.

Yes, but the responses do not match exactly. This is very important! If you're off by a tiny bit, it shows in the group delay. This again points towards why it's so silly to obsess over these graphs. Guess what your room will do to the response, and consequently, the group delay?

 

[girtab]

Here is an example of sealed speaker reaching 20Hz:

Those look beautiful, what speakers are these?

 

[Haskil]

Elles sont magnifiques, quelles sont ces enceintes ?

Dunlavy SC IV

 

[girtab]

Dunlavy SC IV

Are there any measurements of them/ do they sound as good as they look?