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Magic Vinyl Vs Digital — great website

sofrep811

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I think a lot of folks here who like dynamic range data on various audio mediums will enjoy this site. Not perfect but looks like he’s been doing it only a year or two.
Similar to Amir’s work
but he breaks down every digital format, streaming. Hires, and vinyl releases.

 
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JeremyFife

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Agree, it's well worth a look and a think.

It's making me think about multi-channel digital as that seems to escape loudness nonsense.

I'd like to know how they capture the streamed audio, I'd like to try to replicate this ... and I read that DR comparison between vinyl and digital is not clear-cut, but I don't understand that yet.

This sort of site is needed though, anything to help understand the source we feed our systems with.
 

DVDdoug

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and I read that DR comparison between vinyl and digital is not clear-cut, but I don't understand that yet.
The problem is that sometimes the crest factor is used to measure "dynamic range". The crest factor is the ratio (difference*) between the peak and RMS level.**

There is no perfect-way to measure "dynamics". There are short-term dynamics and long-term dynamics, and it's "just complicated". IMO the EBU R128 loudness range ("LDR") is a better than crest factor.

The process of cutting and playing a record changes the wave shape, making some peaks higher and some lower without affecting the sound of the dynamics. The new-higher peaks make a higher crest factor leading some people to think the record is more dynamic than the CD, even if they were made from the same master.

But sometimes the viny is cut from a different master so it might actually have more dynamics. But from what I've read it's more common for the vinyl to have some additional processing, starting with the same master that's used for the digital version. But, that information is rarely released to the public.

MP3 compression does the same thing (usually to a lesser extent). An MP3 often has peaks 1 or 2dB higher than the uncompressed original so the MP3 will measure as more dynamic, again without sounding more dynamic. Many of the MP3s I've ripped from CDs go over 0dB. (MP3 can go over 0dB, but CDs cannot,)






* Decibels are logarithmic so the difference is a ratio.

** RMS is a something like an average... The regular-mathematical average of an audio signal is zero, since it's negative half the time.
 

MaxwellsEq

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There is no perfect-way to measure "dynamics". There are short-term dynamics and long-term dynamics, and it's "just complicated". IMO the EBU R128 loudness range ("LDR") is a better than crest factor.
+1 on EBU R128. Given it is now standard across Radio, TV, podcasts etc. there's benefit in reading and understanding it
 

Cote Dazur

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I think a lot of folks here would enjoy his work.

Thank you for sharing this, the report on Norah Jones is also very informative. The source makes such a difference in what we hear. Being able to compare with the sound bit is fascinating.
Some of the streaming tracks are appalling.
Trough all this years I always kept my vinyl and enjoyed the music, while recognizing the theoric potential of digital as a format but not finding it so special some times when listening to my music.
 
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Loathecliff

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:facepalm:
From https://magicvinyldigital.net/2022/...io-misty-for-direct-cutting-review-lp-mqa-cd/

It is rare to be able to compare a direct recording in pure analog and in high resolution digital version (DSD256). For those who want a pure analog version, the vinyl (Ed1) meets this expectation. The digital version is declined according to several formats, I think that it is necessary to privilege the formats having less modification of the signal, like the streaming in FLAC or the original version DSD 11.2 MHz which is only available in Japan. The vinyl re-release from the digital master DSD is closer to the digital version but with the warmth of vinyl. Each version has its own specificity, everyone will be able to choose the version they prefer according to their own taste.
 
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sofrep811

sofrep811

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Agree, Loathecliff. However, still some interesting posts. :)
 
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sofrep811

sofrep811

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I invited him to join and he seems like a solid guy. I know there's a lot of folks here who could help him out with positive criticism. I think a music site is very much need like ASR. Hoffman forums are annoying and filled with "golden eared" folk.
 
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sofrep811

sofrep811

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Hello,

Thank you for your feedback and your invitation to join your forum
It’s certainly not my forum! But it’s one of the best forums for objective audio gear enthusiasts. Check out some of the reviews. Glad you signed up and thanks so much for your site!
 

Jean.Francois

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Hello,

to complete the reviews of the albums, I'm going to add more technical articles like for example the visit of the DES studio with the explanations of the sound engineer. The article describes the audio system used, the process to mix in Atmos from a multi-track analog tape, the mastering of a SACD in pure analog.

Studio_part2b.jpg

I hope you will find the report of this visit interesting (link)
 
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sofrep811

sofrep811

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What most people (not here) need to realize is no matter how much you upgrade with snake oil it won't make an average or bad recording sound good. Your efforts are well needed. I thin if you give it time (few years) you'll continue to grow. I don't know of too many sites doing what you do.
 

Jean.Francois

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Thank you for your encouragement, I totally agree with you, it is important to know the quality of the recordings to get the best result from an audio system. I try to add new album reviews and technical points to the site regularly, it takes time, there will soon be 50 albums reviewed with over 250 versions. It's not much compared to all the albums that are released, but it's a first step.
 

Soandso

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sofrep811, - "...bad recordings" may explain how last night listening to a recently cleaned favorite old vinyl record during the 1st song I was wondering if my system was suddenly going bad somewhere in the components' chain. Then the 2nd cut (and all following) sounded fine, evoking fond memories with the record album & got my toe tapping.
 

Jean.Francois

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I know this video very well, it is very interesting because it highlights the properties of vinyl. However, I do not agree with the conclusion that for me does not take into consideration all the parameters.

The measurement of the DR is the difference between the average RMS level and the Peak.
We can apply the DR measurement for audio signals, but we must be careful to have clean signals to not disturb this measurement. In the case of vinyl, we must make sure that there are no clicks that would change the value of the peak and therefore the DR. With this precaution, we can measure the DR of vinyl.

The video shows that burning a compressed track (for example with a DR6) will give a vinyl with less compression (with a DR10 for example), if we take other examples like Duo Cirla Trolonge – Piuma, we get the same DR between the vinyl and the digital master.
So we can't generalize.

For me, we can measure the DR of a vinyl, and the conclusion should be that the DR of a vinyl does not allow to deduce the DR of the master used, unlike the digital which reproduces the master (in lossless).

But, this does not show the real problem.
Indeed, we are talking about analog media with physical characteristics.

The brickwall type compression which gives a DR6 or less (DR3), is a purely computer processing, which works only in digital. It introduces constraints on the audio signal which do not pass on the analog supports.
Analog media, vinyl or magnetic tape, have mechanical or magnetic constraints that do not allow this compression to be reproduced.
So if I engrave a song with a DR6, it will come out with a DR10, the vinyl will "compensate" the compression because it can't reproduce it. There is a distortion which will be introduced compared to the initial file (master)
On the other hand, if I record a song with a DR14, it will come out with a DR14.

The role of the mastering is to adapt a mix to a support, in the case of a support like the vinyl, it is necessary to respect its physical constraint and to provide it a signal which will have a dynamics compatible with the support.
The objective is that the support gives the result as close as possible to the Master to have the best possible quality.

So sending a highly compressed master for burning is a mastering mistake. Indeed, it is a double punishment for the music.
Compression to a DR6 will degrade the signal by compressing the dynamics and burning will remodel the signal by recreating the dynamics. So we have two times the distortion.

In the days of full analog work, we didn't have this problem, because analog tapes react in the same way as vinyl for dynamics.

So for me, the real problem highlighted in this video is that you need a master adapted for vinyl to get the best quality of the engraved vinyl.

I am preparing an article detailing what I wrote with measurements on vinyl and tape to illustrate this information and the behavior of the dynamics on these supports.
 
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