m33 , and kef r3 what cross over settings i should use?

[Deleted member 51459]

If the problem is room and speaker placement - why do you think changing the speakers (and not those things) are going to make it better?

other speakers will be made better...
so they will sound better in my desk i guess ? i am guessing i am noob newbie.




Revel i cant get in my country,

So i am again considering any of these .

Please tell me about these -
I am currently considering Focal kanta 1,sopra 1, diablo utopia,
bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4,
kef reference 1 meta, which one do you like the most. ?
Which is the best the most amazing sound quality reproducing speaker compared to my chinese kef .

All sensible, but you need to read the other half dozen threads to understand how we reached this point - everything you've said has been covered, multiple times.

Our best approach at the moment is to try to make what is there work as well as possible. At the moment Bladest is wanting to replace the speakers with something more expensive. Quite frankly, I'm happy for him to do that, or take up your suggestions, or keep what he has: but none of those options are any good until he has a grip on what is wrong today, with his current stuff.

While I don't like working from videos, it appears that he has bad bass and that is to do with the desk and placement. Dirac is just modifying the bass output of the desk in effect.

Please tell me your favourites
I am currently considering Focal kanta 1,sopra 1, diablo utopia,
bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4,
kef reference 1 meta, which one do you like the most. ?
Which is the best the most amazing sound quality reproducing speaker compared to my chinese kef ?

Who is the best rock solid reference sound speaker from these? all expensive stuff smells like money to me $$$$.


i cant return the nad its written as company accountant purchase first of all, and 2nd it was special order for me people doesnt do returns for such things at least where i am dealership try to extract from me maximum profit with 000 returns happy days for them.


Genelec no dealership, i like nad m33 its cool unit it have some issues like power on and off missing from the app i dont like
no way to place speakers other place, i have door on my left side, i cant put speaker there with or without stand door wont be able to be opened.
thats best i can do.
i improved the space a lot i removed a lot of the things from my desk... in order to make place for nad m33 and speakers ...

OK, I broke the habits of a lifetime and listened to your video.

The sound is nowhere near as bad as I expected! It's not my kind of music, but hardly matters. I'll put the treble rolloff down to the mic for now, that can be improved with full DIrac if it's down in the room. Vocals are clear, I can hear every word. Treble sounds OK. In other words, the speakers are plenty good enough there.
Bass - ugh. It does sound a bit better without the Dirac to me.

Does that concur with what you are hearing in the room?

If that's right then changing speakers without other changes won't help much.

Can you put the sub back, crossover at the highest frequency available to you and make another video?
Have you tried the books under the speakers thing I suggested earlier?

I'm thinking that the R3s are exciting the desk a lot more than the Muso did and that's a big chunk of your problem.

Muso was very dynamic and exiting all in one box.
without missing anything.... i have no books where i am so i cant test or try test i read online books these days only no physical books sorry. But please tell me your favourites so i can pre order next speakers.
My sub is junk.

what kinda of song and music you want to hear, can you advice?

The video won't help me. it might help other people. I am concerned with the nature of what you are hearing, not what the microphone gives.

I'll try again. I know you are trying hard to fix this, but I can't get from your posts much that helps my way of thinking about this.

What is the source you are listening to? If you have plugged an analogue cable from the computer to the amp, we have to go through the computer audio setup from scratch as well. I don't want to go there.

Turn Dirac OFF for now. It isn't going to help you yet. Take the sub out of the system. It isn't going to help you yet. It sounds like you have tried that and still get bad sound, that is our starting point.

What cable are you using for the speakers? Can you move things around to do the fourth thing I asked for?

For "sixthly" I don't just want you to listen "in mono". I want you to listen to just one of the speakers. That means in mono, but also with the balance adjusted so only one speaker is making a sound. If that sounds better in terms of balance (obviously you don't get a stereo effect from one speaker) then we know that the problem is with the position of your desk and speakers. If it's still bad to you, then maybe you do have the wrong speakers.

Next - I want you to try to describe the sound. Your usual word "junk" tells me precisely nothing. Is the sound boomy, too bright, confused so you can't hear the words, does it sound like one speaker is much louder than the other - what are you hearing? Without some sort of description it's hard to go further. I want to know something about your expectations. As far as I know, your Muso would have had slightly boosted bass and treble but the KEFs shouldn't sound as lousy as you are implying. Something else is up here, and I'm thinking we could recommend speakers to you all day and expect the same result.

The R3 is a perfectly reasonable speaker. While you may prefer something different, they should not be "junk". So maybe the problem is that you are expecting a totally different sound to the "reference" you first asked for.

With the dealers, I'm NOT asking you to go and buy something from them. You go there, ask to listen to some system, see what you like of what they do have. Then you politely say "thank you, I'll think about it for a bit" and leave again. If everything you hear sounds bad to you, something else is up. Turn what they do back onto them: if they can't demo what you want to hear, hear what they want to demo, and use that in your search. If you get to hear something good, then great. If you need to drive over the border for a day to visit a dealer in a different country and exploit them, in this case do it - if you find a good dealer outside of Bulgaria that has equipment you would consider on demo, then it may be worth spending the money with them to fix this.

As you said, you have to wait for two years to claim the tax anyway and it might get rejected. If you want good music in your basement it's worth the money and time - or if it isn't then buy something cheap and save for that move.

One more question. Your car systems, do they have equalisers and such? Can you let us know if you are running them with bass or treble. turned up high? That will help with any recommendations we give.

You can ask about different speakers all day. Do you think, after you've bought an amp and speakers sight unseen based on advice, that I'm going to risk any more of your money without knowing a lot more about what you are hearing and doing? I'm happy to stand behind the M33, it is a good platform for you to work from unless you can get to hear active alternatives that you are prepared to buy. The problem is somewhere else.

I replied many times about this here is it again, it doesnt matter if i am listening flac,mp3 or something else i listen 2 sources , 1st my computer connected with digital cable to nad m33,

2nd source my phone airplay same songs same quality........ mp3 or flac...
it was these sources i have listened to naim muso as well , the source is not the problem.


Of course issue is the position with the speaker if i got space i will get stands and it will be little bit improvet but not major.

My car and every single system i own / have

is running at 0 bass
0 treble... no dsp and nothing else turned to the maximum.
or above the balanced treshold...


just as example muso have much better vocals and everything...
with kef everything is much worse...
at least in their current placement withor without dirac...



Difference between my jvc integrated amp and nad m33 is kinda 0000 most people cannot hear it.
Cables i use are brand new forgot the brand from Europe.
so i tried mono and listening to one of the speakers only , not good for me.

Currently i am working everyday and i cant go to dealers outside my country.
I have a lot of things to pay...


i dont USE anywhere EQ.so i have EQ but it stays OFF, in every single car i got.
their eq is simular to crappy dirac mic measures and tunes for you.... so i keep it off.

In terms of quality i can say, that the speakers it self sound bad, terrible, they sound like 5$ my headphone or even worse... lacking details, lacking everything........

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The whole reason for this hobby is to reproduce the sound, as captured by the production team, from a live or studio recording in your accommodation. In practice this is always a compromise.

The point of the exercise is not to reproduce the sound from a car. From practical experience working in studios, the sound of music in a car is very unlike the sound in the studio.

 

[Rednaxela]

The point of the exercise is not to reproduce the sound from a car.

For the OP it is.

 

[Galliardist]

The sound in the video is not "lacking details, lacking everything" for what it is. At home where I have better sound and can compare with the sound from Qubuz, the with Dirac version is better than without and has some flavour of that synth bass. I can hear the vocal (definitely not my thing) and every word is crystal clear. The treble seems OK as well, as best as a phone mic can show. Things would be a little better with the speakers pointing in about 30 degrees or so.

There's not that much wrong. The bass is smeared with and without Dirac - that comes from the desk and the placement, not the speakers. It would swamp any difference betwen the M33 and the JVC amp if there was power lacking, because the low impedance with the KEFs is in the bass as well...

My guess is that either you've convinced yourself that the R3s are bad, that there's some subconscious bias going on, or that what you want is something somewhat different to "reference sound" as I understand it. Of course, the video sound could be a poor representation of what you are hearing.

If it is subconscious bias then pretty much any decent speaker that can work on a desk will sound better to you.

In a better location, you might have been able to get some with a return period if they didn't work, and we could find out. But I'm not going to recommend something if our target sound is different.

So, I've tried, and thanks for trying at least some of what I could offer. I've got nothing else for you, I'm afraid.

Has anyone else listened to that video and heard different to me? Perhaps it's my standards that are crappy, or I have some bias myself.

 

[Galliardist]

The whole reason for this hobby is to reproduce the sound, as captured by the production team, from a live or studio recording in your accommodation. In practice this is always a compromise.

The point of the exercise is not to reproduce the sound from a car. From practical experience working in studios, the sound of music in a car is very unlike the sound in the studio.

For me and you, maybe.

The real point is to enjoy music (or movie sound or whatever) and some people need a different target to enjoy music, or just have some negative reaction to what they are listening to. In that boat, they need to employ a different approach. Here, bladest needs to ditch our approach and go listen to other stuff to find out what he likes and which speakers he can trust. Unless he finds the time and a way to listen to other things, he's doomed to piling up equipment and maybe bankruptcy doing it.

I'm not prepared to help him spend all his money on guesswork.

 

[Deleted member 51459]

About speakers how they sound to me they sounded like distorted or with very bad quality...
and there is some noice i think but when i play music they sound terrible to me.i would love to be able to listen all of the models i have mentioned in my country but they are none such options.

I have new fresh video for you with dirac on, kelly rowland no rap, you can hear at least in person how sound is terrible... please listen to the whole video...

in real listening these speakers sound awfull video is made from where i listen to them. from my chair. If i get better speakers things willbe improved 100%

To me the whole speaker accoustic sounds terrible... i am not sure if i can explain that well..

 

[Jimbob54]

Regardless of the sincerity of the OP - I dont believe anything any member says on these multitudinous threads is helping either our cause or that of the OP.

I suggest we all refrain from further engagement. Neither legit advice nor (understandable) sarcasm and mockery is having any impact.

Someone said this is performance art. They might be right, but it certainly is a performance.

EDIT- but just in case he listens this final time

to the OP- disable any crossover settings you may have set up on the M33- you dont have a sub and only a single amp so the crossover needs to be done by the passive XO on the r3 with the control knobs fully tightened down. Dont try bi wiring- just one run of cable from one set of the speaker outs to one set of the speaker terminals.

Help - setting up KEF R3 (single wire connection)

So, I picked up the KEF R3 and the new amp and took them home. The KEF R3 are the first biwarable speakers I have bought - and they've got these link knobs on the back. Unfortunately, the intructions do not explain what these knobs do. I'm supposed to turn the knob on the left speaker in a...

www.avforums.com

 

[Laserjock]

Do you have any friends, coworkers or employees that are into this kind of stuff?
I think you need someone that can be there in person to help you before you go spending money on new speakers or changing anything else.

I’m wondering if your woofer is engaged and you are only hearing the mid and tweeter section but I assume someone has already pointed you in that direction (I think the KEF’s have a “knobs” in between the binding posts, make sure these are rotated all the way clockwise (2 on both speakers) )

*Edited for knobs vs switch

 

[mcdn]

At 0:22 in that video, the M33 VU meters are at 0dB, that’s maximum output level? Or is that input level? If it’s showing the output level then your problem is clear, there’s no way the M33 should be anywhere near maximum output.

edit: checked the manual, the VU meters show input level. Seems pointless to me but it is what it is.

 

[voodooless]

I have new fresh video for you with dirac on, kelly rowland no rap, you can hear at least in person how sound is terrible... please listen to the whole video...

Why do you still maintain the same setup? Listening that far off-axis is just shit. Get those speakers closer, or angle them way towards you a lot more.

 

[Rednaxela]

Has anyone else listened to that video and heard different to me?

I just watched the video. My €0.02...

At 1m19s there is a shot of the speakers and how they are positioned. I am not entirely sure where the microphone is located but my impression is that the OP is listenening extremely off axis. So the first thing I would do is to try and get them more in an equilateral triangle. This will require the speakers to get closer together and to be toed in much more.

Another issue as also pointed out by others is the fact that the speakers are standing on the desk. Maybe, given all OP's constraints re. positioning and everything, he could try and place the speaker horizontally, elevated with the coaxial driver at ear hight, and with the woofers on the outside. This is probably against a lot of theory and common wisdom, but may still be a considerable improvement compared to what's in the video.

Of course this requires new Dirac measurements and corrections.

Sincerely HTH.

 

[Rednaxela]

You beat me to it @voodooless. Makes one wonder what this means for the applied Dirac corrections. They must be massive.

 

[caught gesture]

About speakers how they sound to me they sounded like distorted or with very bad quality...
and there is some noice i think but when i play music they sound terrible to me.i would love to be able to listen all of the models i have mentioned in my country but they are none such options.

I have new fresh video for you with dirac on, kelly rowland no rap, you can hear at least in person how sound is terrible... please listen to the whole video...

in real listening these speakers sound awfull video is made from where i listen to them. from my chair. If i get better speakers things willbe improved 100%

To me the whole speaker accoustic sounds terrible... i am not sure if i can explain that well..

Why don’t you toe the speakers in? It has been mentioned numerous times. It does not require any expenditure. Angle them in towards your listening position and make a new video with the same song, same levels, same recording position. These videos you are making are not helping unless you make some changes in the position of the speakers. Changing the music doesn’t help.

 

[Deleted member 51459]

For me and you, maybe.

The real point is to enjoy music (or movie sound or whatever) and some people need a different target to enjoy music, or just have some negative reaction to what they are listening to. In that boat, they need to employ a different approach. Here, bladest needs to ditch our approach and go listen to other stuff to find out what he likes and which speakers he can trust. Unless he finds the time and a way to listen to other things, he's doomed to piling up equipment and maybe bankruptcy doing it.

I'm not prepared to help him spend all his money on guesswork.

Here is my 30-40 years old car

FOCAL UTOPIA TWEETERS
ARC RS 6.0 speakers
p99rs headunit,

mosconi class ab amp no sound insolation no dsp no eq no tunning at all...

please check this music is in real when you listen inside the car is more lively and much much better quality same song same quality same source etcs...
i even use aux from my car...
i showed option with sub at 00 or at 10% ...

Why don’t you toe the speakers in? It has been mentioned numerous times. It does not require any expenditure. Angle them in towards your listening position and make a new video with the same song, same levels, same recording position. These videos you are making are not helping unless you make some changes in the position of the speakers. Changing the music doesn’t help.

I cant make speakers to be in the position to me because they will colide with the amp and other things i have in my desk.... so its kinda impossible...
they are very close together.... if i put them that direction waves of the sound will be absorbed via the amp... and other things will be in their way...

You beat me to it @voodooless. Makes one wonder what this means for the applied Dirac corrections. They must be massive.

About Dirac

i took 5 or 10 different positions to measure
my primary and other ones i followed instructions all the time,
so everything is measured properly i even choose that i got single chair etcs...

Do you have any friends, coworkers or employees that are into this kind of stuff?
I think you need someone that can be there in person to help you before you go spending money on new speakers or changing anything else.

I’m wondering if your woofer is engaged and you are only hearing the mid and tweeter section but I assume someone has already pointed you in that direction (I think the KEF’s have a “knobs” in between the binding posts, make sure these are rotated all the way clockwise (2 on both speakers) )

*Edited for knobs vs switch

i got no friends, people dont like me much...

Regardless of the sincerity of the OP - I dont believe anything any member says on these multitudinous threads is helping either our cause or that of the OP.

I suggest we all refrain from further engagement. Neither legit advice nor (understandable) sarcasm and mockery is having any impact.

Someone said this is performance art. They might be right, but it certainly is a performance.

EDIT- but just in case he listens this final time

to the OP- disable any crossover settings you may have set up on the M33- you dont have a sub and only a single amp so the crossover needs to be done by the passive XO on the r3 with the control knobs fully tightened down. Dont try bi wiring- just one run of cable from one set of the speaker outs to one set of the speaker terminals.

Help - setting up KEF R3 (single wire connection)

So, I picked up the KEF R3 and the new amp and took them home. The KEF R3 are the first biwarable speakers I have bought - and they've got these link knobs on the back. Unfortunately, the intructions do not explain what these knobs do. I'm supposed to turn the knob on the left speaker in a...

www.avforums.com

i am not using by wire and cross over setting in m33 change nothing...
speakers still sound mizerable...
i tried most options for cross over..
i also dont use sub...
i am with single wire connection all the time same with jvc...

 

[antcollinet]

in real listening these speakers sound awfull video is made from where i listen to them. from my chair. If i get better speakers things willbe improved 100%

No, they won't. It doesn't matter how good your speakers are - if they are directly on your desk using it as a sounding board, the sound will be terrible. At least try some sound isolation between the speakers and your desk.

In fact - without worrying about it being practical. Take the speakers off your desk and put then on something (anything) at least 50cm from the wall. Then see what you get.

 

[Deleted member 51459]

No, they won't. It doesn't matter how good your speakers are - if they are directly on your desk using it as a sounding board, the sound will be terrible. At least try some sound isolation between the speakers and your desk.

In fact - without worrying about it being practical. Take the speakers off your desk and put then on something (anything) at least 50cm from the wall. Then see what you get.

my cables are very very short i cant put them 50cm away from the amp....
Just tell me your personall favourite ?

I am currently considering Focal kanta 1,sopra 1, diablo utopia,
bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4,
kef reference 1 meta, which one do you like the most. ?

 

[Rednaxela]

Get longer cables.

 

[antcollinet]

Spend $30 on some longer cables and try it. Anything 12 guage/ 2.5mm2 or bigger will suffice.

Don't spend 1000's on new speakers until you've solved the problems using the R3s. It will be money down the toilet.

 

[Rednaxela]

so its kinda impossible...

Rubbish.

You can move around everything I see in the video to get to the bottom of your issue. You're just not willing to.

 

[gumblag]

About speakers how they sound to me they sounded like distorted or with very bad quality...
and there is some noice i think but when i play music they sound terrible to me.i would love to be able to listen all of the models i have mentioned in my country but they are none such options.

I have new fresh video for you with dirac on, kelly rowland no rap, you can hear at least in person how sound is terrible... please listen to the whole video...

in real listening these speakers sound awfull video is made from where i listen to them. from my chair. If i get better speakers things willbe improved 100%

To me the whole speaker accoustic sounds terrible... i am not sure if i can explain that well..

You've started 12 threads concerning your 'journey in HiFi world'. You've got tons of advice and ignored a lot of it. You've ignored advice like reading manuals which is obvious otherwise you would have asked different questions. Neither do you trust your ears. Your obsession with 'reference quality' on one hand and the qualification you apply to everything else on the other. It's not the system you have problems with as far as the sound producing part is concerned, it is the medium and or the recipient, or both. As far as the medium is concerned, I would suggest you apply the proposed advice and then apply Dirac Live. As far as the recipient is concerned..... You started so many threads and they all deal with one topic which could have had a title like "I want to change my audio setup' or something general like that. And then describe the criteria of your needs/wishes, availability, financial and what not, instead of starting a new thread as soon as you think you need advice/answers about questions which seem to boil up as if overpowering your mind. It looks all quite impulsive.
My experience with the KEF R3. They are not nearfield speakers. And if you want them to use them as such any way, you'll need speakerstands; the desk is not suitable for the KEF R3s; it will resonate, act as a soundboard and be of negative influence on the sound dispersion and -refraction. The Kef R3s need to be at least 22 cm away from the back wall. I had them 85 cm from my backwall to let them sound very nice, therefore I used them for midfield listening and they did a hell of a good job too! You'll have to toe the R3s in and be seated right in the middle between, and as far away from, the speakers as they're standing away from each other. In your video the KEF R3s sound terrible indeed. If it is not the recording, it's a challenge I'd say.
I probably would have gone for an active speakersystem considering the available listening space visible in your video and I would then still be in need of stands for the speakers, anyway.
I guess you've end up spending more money on a drain then there is left to throw down into it. But maybe somewhat comforting thoughts: What if on one day you hear the best sound quality and find out that you don't like it? Is the system to blame you're not liking is, or the room, or are you, or all three, or just two? And what if on one day the sound you like most is not the best sound quality? Is the system to blame, or the room, or are you, or all three, or just two?