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m33 , and kef r3 what cross over settings i should use?

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With Dirac, the output level will be lower than without in order to allow headroom for the correction. Your listening position, and therefore where you are recording the sound for these videos, is entirely inappropriate, especially considering the lack of toe-in of your speakers. I can imagine it sounds terrible. You’ve spent all this money on components but are not even sitting in an advantageous position to get the best out of your equipment. Why don’t you just buy a lifestyle speaker, streamer, all in one unit, that doesn’t care about positioning? A Devialet Phantom, or something similar, would cost you less than your current set up and be far more suitable for your needs and real estate.
Yes when u turn speakers more loudly they still sound horrible/terrible quality is not there when i compared them to mark levinson or focal utopia at my other car , they are sounding bad to me.

so i can go with focal diablo utopia , kanta,sopra 1, or kef reference 1 or bowers and wilkinsons 800-700 series , where i will gain the best possible, benefit?
i need sound quality all of these are expensive.
i use to own NAIM MUSO 2
WHICH I recently sold,

i was adviced from this Forum to buy/speakers and amplifier
in order to see NIGHT AND day difference, forgot who mentioned this many people i think..

but in reality quality dropped a lot
i can tell significantly.

Quality is very very worse now .
I will no go back to my old set up like all in one solution i cant sale the nad m33 for 2 years at least.. so i am stuck i need to get better speakers.
without integrated amp.
 

Jimbob54

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Yes when u turn speakers more loudly they still sound horrible/terrible quality is not there when i compared them to mark levinson or focal utopia at my other car , they are sounding bad to me.

so i can go with focal diablo utopia , kanta,sopra 1, or kef reference 1 or bowers and wilkinsons 800-700 series , where i will gain the best possible, benefit?
i need sound quality all of these are expensive.
i use to own NAIM MUSO 2
WHICH I recently sold,

i was adviced from this Forum to buy/speakers and amplifier
in order to see NIGHT AND day difference, forgot who mentioned this many people i think..

but in reality quality dropped a lot
i can tell significantly.
Quality is very very worse now .
I will no go back to my old set up like all in one solution i cant sale the nad m33 for 2 years at least.. so i am stuck i need to get better speakers.
without integrated amp.
For those that dont want to buy into this revisionist version of events - the origin of the saga...

 

irontortoise

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These threads are the REAL Multiverse of Madness! I know someone is waiting for Season 2, but I want a prequel first!
 

antcollinet

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i was adviced from this Forum to buy/speakers and amplifier
in order to see NIGHT AND day difference, forgot who mentioned this many people i think..

Most of the advice you were given was ignored. For example the suggestions to get powered near field monitors, put your speakers on stands etc.

And with the kit you have now, if you think it is bad quality, then either you don't have it set up correctly, or your room and listening position is completely unsuitable - I notice you also haven't followed the advice to acoustically separate your speakers from your desk. The whole desktop will be operating as a sounding board - god knows what that is doing to the sound. Nor do you have your speakers 20cm from the wall (as far as I can see) which even if you had is not nearly enough. I'm not sure you've even got 10cm.

Or you had completely unrealistic expectations (you are not going to replicate the experience of an in car surround system with a stereo system - it will simply sound different (not necessarily worse, but it will be different).

But of course, no, it is not because you are clueless, it is because you have bought junk speakers and have had bad advice.


My sincere suggestion to you, since you find the advice you've had here so bad, is to go and get advice somewhere else.
 
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OP
D

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Most of the advice you were given was ignored. For example the suggestions to get powered near field monitors, put your speakers on stands etc.

And with the kit you have now, if you think it is bad quality, then either you don't have it set up correctly, or your room and listening position is completely unsuitable - I notice you also haven't followed the advice to acoustically separate your speakers from your desk. The whole desktop will be operating as a sounding board - god knows what that is doing to the sound.

Or you had completely unrealistic expectations (you are not going to replicate the experience of an in car surround system with a stereo system - it will simply sound different (not necessarily worse, but it will be different).

But of course, no, it is not because you are clueless, it is because you have bought junk speakers and have had bad advice.


My sincere suggestion to you, since you find the advice you've had here so bad, is to go and get advice somewhere else.
Nothing is ignored
i bought
kef r3 because i have been adviced here that there will be night and day difference, between naim muso 2 and kef r3,

i also bought purifi based amp nad m33, because i was again told night and day difference between my 30 years old jvc,
i have not ignored any advice i cant buy anything in the world i dont have endless budget like most people here.

I will need now to change the speakers,
and all be sorted out .
i cant sale the amp in 2 years at least.
 

samysound

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Yes when u turn speakers more loudly they still sound horrible/terrible quality is not there when i compared them to mark levinson or focal utopia at my other car , they are sounding bad to me.

so i can go with focal diablo utopia , kanta,sopra 1, or kef reference 1 or bowers and wilkinsons 800-700 series , where i will gain the best possible, benefit?
i need sound quality all of these are expensive.
i use to own NAIM MUSO 2
WHICH I recently sold,

i was adviced from this Forum to buy/speakers and amplifier
in order to see NIGHT AND day difference, forgot who mentioned this many people i think..

but in reality quality dropped a lot
i can tell significantly.

Quality is very very worse now .
I will no go back to my old set up like all in one solution i cant sale the nad m33 for 2 years at least.. so i am stuck i need to get better speakers.
without integrated amp.
obviously you should buy the most expensive pair
 
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Galliardist

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Nothing is ignored
i bought
kef r3 because i have been adviced here that there will be night and day difference, between naim muso 2 and kef r3,

i also bought purifi based amp nad m33, because i was again told night and day difference between my 30 years old jvc,
i have not ignored any advice i cant buy anything in the world i dont have endless budget like most people here.

I will need now to change the speakers,
and all be sorted out .
i cant sale the amp in 2 years at least.
Firstly, there is the point that you've selected the advice you've taken. Not everyone was telling you to buy either. Some of us did question the "night and day" comments. For example, I warned that the "night and day" difference between the R3s and the Muso depended on proper placement of the speakers. And as I remember it, the R3s were recommended and you bought them before you told us this is a desktop setup.

You continued to use the JVC amp after several people here told you to wait for the M33. That wouldn't have got you out of the mess you have now, but it does raise the possibility, however small, that you damaged the R3s. I can't tell from this distance, obviously. For now let's assume otherwise.

And I also advised you to use the Muso in the meantime. That was deliberate, because we know you preferred the sound of the Muso. Sure enough, you sold it off cheap.

We advised you to look at manuals and so on before buying, so there is no excuse for you to complain about the on/off with the NAD, because it was there for you to find out all along.

Secondly, there are people on this forum (but not involved in your threads) that are using the R3s as desktop speakers successfully. So we know it's possible. You can extract yourself from this situation and get sound that should at least be equivalent to the Muso for your much higher expenditure, and hopefully still better.

I don't know how much of the setup suggestions you've tried - for example, I made some suggestions about placement, and also to try to set the speakers up without DIRAC or the sub in place first, and to get the best sound you could that way. That advice by the way is quite deliberately given. Things like DIRAC and subs will improve a decent sound but they won't magically make a lousy setup into a great sound. You aren't the only person who needs to learn that judging by some of the posts here.

Anyway, let's start from where you are now. The M33 is not, sonically, the problem here. We have to deal with the room, the desktop, the R3s and of course your reaction to what you have.

So, please do the following and report back.

Firstly, for now, switch off DIRAC and make sure any other settings on the amp are neutral or turned off, so you have the direct sound of the amp.

Secondly, disconnect the sub for now.

Thirdly, make sure you are using BluOS or your phone via Airplay, and not the computer output. By doing this, we can discount the computer output as part of the problem.
Fourthly, do the test I suggested earlier about putting the speakers at the very front of the desk and listening from a distance. If that sounds any better, then we may have a placement problem. Do that experiment with the foam plugs out. If the sound is still "horrible" then the placement issues may be less important here.

Fifthly, listen to the M33 output at a low volume with a pair of headphones. That should at least sound useable. If it sounds horrible with the headphones you may have some obscure input issue going on

Sixthly, listen to one of the R3s in mono - the one that is not in the corner. If that sounds a lot better, again we have some kind of placement problem. If it still sounds terrible, do the thing I suggested under that one speaker, standing it on a couple of paperback books, and try again. If that still sounds really bad to you, then the at least part of the problem is that you just don't like the R3s and at least part of the answer is to replace them.

Seventhly - and I would personally do this before the first six, but it doesn't sound like you would - as I keep repeating, you must go to some hifi stores and get some demos of the systems and speakers they do have. You absolutely MUST do this before you spend another cent on anything.

When you've worked through the six steps, come back and report here. No videos this time - try to describe the sound in words. This isn't normal advice at ASR, but in this case we are dealing with your reaction to what you are hearing. We can't hear it as you do, and I don't trust videos.

Also, can you post the Dirac response some other way - I get access denied when I try to look at it.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 51459

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Firstly, there is the point that you've selected the advice you've taken. Not everyone was telling you to buy either. Some of us did question the "night and day" comments. For example, I warned that the "night and day" difference between the R3s and the Muso depended on proper placement of the speakers. And as I remember it, the R3s were recommended and you bought them before you told us this is a desktop setup.

You continued to use the JVC amp after several people here told you to wait for the M33. That wouldn't have got you out of the mess you have now, but it does raise the possibility, however small, that you damaged the R3s. I can't tell from this distance, obviously. For now let's assume otherwise.

And I also advised you to use the Muso in the meantime. That was deliberate, because we know you preferred the sound of the Muso. Sure enough, you sold it off cheap.

We advised you to look at manuals and so on before buying, so there is no excuse for you to complain about the on/off with the NAD, because it was there for you to find out all along.

Secondly, there are people on this forum (but not involved in your threads) that are using the R3s as desktop speakers successfully. So we know it's possible. You can extract yourself from this situation and get sound that should at least be equivalent to the Muso for your much higher expenditure, and hopefully still better.

I don't know how much of the setup suggestions you've tried - for example, I made some suggestions about placement, and also to try to set the speakers up without DIRAC or the sub in place first, and to get the best sound you could that way. That advice by the way is quite deliberately given. Things like DIRAC and subs will improve a decent sound but they won't magically make a lousy setup into a great sound. You aren't the only person who needs to learn that judging by some of the posts here.

Anyway, let's start from where you are now. The M33 is not, sonically, the problem here. We have to deal with the room, the desktop, the R3s and of course your reaction to what you have.

So, please do the following and report back.

Firstly, for now, switch off DIRAC and make sure any other settings on the amp are neutral or turned off, so you have the direct sound of the amp.

Secondly, disconnect the sub for now.

Thirdly, make sure you are using BluOS or your phone via Airplay, and not the computer output. By doing this, we can discount the computer output as part of the problem.
Fourthly, do the test I suggested earlier about putting the speakers at the very front of the desk and listening from a distance. If that sounds any better, then we may have a placement problem. Do that experiment with the foam plugs out. If the sound is still "horrible" then the placement issues may be less important here.

Fifthly, listen to the M33 output at a low volume with a pair of headphones. That should at least sound useable. If it sounds horrible with the headphones you may have some obscure input issue going on

Sixthly, listen to one of the R3s in mono - the one that is not in the corner. If that sounds a lot better, again we have some kind of placement problem. If it still sounds terrible, do the thing I suggested under that one speaker, standing it on a couple of paperback books, and try again. If that still sounds really bad to you, then the at least part of the problem is that you just don't like the R3s and at least part of the answer is to replace them.

Seventhly - and I would personally do this before the first six, but it doesn't sound like you would - as I keep repeating, you must go to some hifi stores and get some demos of the systems and speakers they do have. You absolutely MUST do this before you spend another cent on anything.

When you've worked through the six steps, come back and report here. No videos this time - try to describe the sound in words. This isn't normal advice at ASR, but in this case we are dealing with your reaction to what you are hearing. We can't hear it as you do, and I don't trust videos.

Also, can you post the Dirac response some other way - I get access denied when I try to look at it.


Please watch my cool demo video, i can record you more songs if you like just tell me name of the songs.. you want to hear with or without dirac.

i made dirac measurements all day in order to provide you the highest possible quality of recording. Sub is not currently connected.


I listen to neutral things over the amp and with dirac off,

and no sub attached.

I am limited with the space and speakers cables and its nightmare to move all of these short cables..

I tried many many times foam pluging the speakers they sound worse with or without dirac and foam, that doesnt help in my case i also listen music from my phone via airplay speakers sound the same songs bad.


Fifthly, listen to the M33 output at a low volume with a pair of headphones. That should at least sound useable. If it sounds horrible with the headphones you may have some obscure input issue going on i got no headphones, at least proper headphones i have only apple headphones 5$
old ones.... not sure if i can attach them this phono jjack is too big for them..


Sixthly, not sound better to me it sound mono even worse.

Seventhly - they try to sale me most junky and most upscale stuff i already have been in many stores they think of me as a GOLDEN MINE. They are lacking products i like preffer.
they try to dump me their junky inventory full of junk... i will not buy their junk at insane price.


i dont have in my country place where i can try focal utopia diablo ot kanta/sopra 1 , all of these is placed by order for which i need to pay money in advance and i cant cancel... same for kef speakers reference 1 meta.
no one is holding them in stock...
same for bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4.


Do you want dirac picture or ? i attach it here once again please try to see it now.
i specified that i am sitting in chair
and i took several measurements of several places with included mic ...
i do this everyday in order to make the best sound for you.




Please tell me about these -
I am currently considering Focal kanta 1,sopra 1, diablo utopia,
bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4,
kef reference 1 meta, which one do you like the most. ?
Which is the best the most amazing sound quality reproducing speaker compared to my chinese kef .
 

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Galliardist

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I doubt it.
He might just convince himself otherwise. And at least it will be over.

What he won't have though is the Reference Sound he asked for in the first thread. Unfortunately somebody DID say that just getting the R3s would be a night and day difference. I don't remember the order but I think he'd really already decided on the R3s before he got here. And of course on stands in a decent room there would be a big difference.
 
OP
D

Deleted member 51459

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He might just convince himself otherwise. And at least it will be over.

What he won't have though is the Reference Sound he asked for in the first thread. Unfortunately somebody DID say that just getting the R3s would be a night and day difference. I don't remember the order but I think he'd really already decided on the R3s before he got here. And of course on stands in a decent room there would be a big difference.
will kef wireless ls 50 ii sound better in my cool rented basemant, compared to kef r3, without stands both models or it will be same?
they will be in same place.
 

Galliardist

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Please watch my cool demo video, i can record you more songs if you like just tell me name of the songs.. you want to hear with or without dirac.

i made dirac measurements all day in order to provide you the highest possible quality of recording. Sub is not currently connected.


I listen to neutral things over the amp and with dirac off,

and no sub attached.

I am limited with the space and speakers cables and its nightmare to move all of these short cables..

I tried many many times foam pluging the speakers they sound worse with or without dirac and foam, that doesnt help in my case i also listen music from my phone via airplay speakers sound the same songs bad.


Fifthly, listen to the M33 output at a low volume with a pair of headphones. That should at least sound useable. If it sounds horrible with the headphones you may have some obscure input issue going on i got no headphones, at least proper headphones i have only apple headphones 5$
old ones.... not sure if i can attach them this phono jjack is too big for them..


Sixthly, not sound better to me it sound mono even worse.

Seventhly - they try to sale me most junky and most upscale stuff i already have been in many stores they think of me as a GOLDEN MINE. They are lacking products i like preffer.
they try to dump me their junky inventory full of junk... i will not buy their junk at insane price.


i dont have in my country place where i can try focal utopia diablo ot kanta/sopra 1 , all of these is placed by order for which i need to pay money in advance and i cant cancel... same for kef speakers reference 1 meta.
no one is holding them in stock...
same for bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4.


Do you want dirac picture or ? i attach it here once again please try to see it now.
i specified that i am sitting in chair
and i took several measurements of several places with included mic ...
i do this everyday in order to make the best sound for you.




Please tell me about these -
I am currently considering Focal kanta 1,sopra 1, diablo utopia,
bowers and wilkinsons 805 d4,
kef reference 1 meta, which one do you like the most. ?
Which is the best the most amazing sound quality reproducing speaker compared to my chinese kef .
The video won't help me. it might help other people. I am concerned with the nature of what you are hearing, not what the microphone gives.

I'll try again. I know you are trying hard to fix this, but I can't get from your posts much that helps my way of thinking about this.

What is the source you are listening to? If you have plugged an analogue cable from the computer to the amp, we have to go through the computer audio setup from scratch as well. I don't want to go there.

Turn Dirac OFF for now. It isn't going to help you yet. Take the sub out of the system. It isn't going to help you yet. It sounds like you have tried that and still get bad sound, that is our starting point.

What cable are you using for the speakers? Can you move things around to do the fourth thing I asked for?

For "sixthly" I don't just want you to listen "in mono". I want you to listen to just one of the speakers. That means in mono, but also with the balance adjusted so only one speaker is making a sound. If that sounds better in terms of balance (obviously you don't get a stereo effect from one speaker) then we know that the problem is with the position of your desk and speakers. If it's still bad to you, then maybe you do have the wrong speakers.

Next - I want you to try to describe the sound. Your usual word "junk" tells me precisely nothing. Is the sound boomy, too bright, confused so you can't hear the words, does it sound like one speaker is much louder than the other - what are you hearing? Without some sort of description it's hard to go further. I want to know something about your expectations. As far as I know, your Muso would have had slightly boosted bass and treble but the KEFs shouldn't sound as lousy as you are implying. Something else is up here, and I'm thinking we could recommend speakers to you all day and expect the same result.

The R3 is a perfectly reasonable speaker. While you may prefer something different, they should not be "junk". So maybe the problem is that you are expecting a totally different sound to the "reference" you first asked for.

With the dealers, I'm NOT asking you to go and buy something from them. You go there, ask to listen to some system, see what you like of what they do have. Then you politely say "thank you, I'll think about it for a bit" and leave again. If everything you hear sounds bad to you, something else is up. Turn what they do back onto them: if they can't demo what you want to hear, hear what they want to demo, and use that in your search. If you get to hear something good, then great. If you need to drive over the border for a day to visit a dealer in a different country and exploit them, in this case do it - if you find a good dealer outside of Bulgaria that has equipment you would consider on demo, then it may be worth spending the money with them to fix this.

As you said, you have to wait for two years to claim the tax anyway and it might get rejected. If you want good music in your basement it's worth the money and time - or if it isn't then buy something cheap and save for that move.

One more question. Your car systems, do they have equalisers and such? Can you let us know if you are running them with bass or treble. turned up high? That will help with any recommendations we give.

You can ask about different speakers all day. Do you think, after you've bought an amp and speakers sight unseen based on advice, that I'm going to risk any more of your money without knowing a lot more about what you are hearing and doing? I'm happy to stand behind the M33, it is a good platform for you to work from unless you can get to hear active alternatives that you are prepared to buy. The problem is somewhere else.
 

Galliardist

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That dirac response doesn't look so bad. Of course it is only working at low frequencies as supplied. The frequency response isn't the only aspect to it though, and I don't know dirac that well, others here can help much better.

Turning it on should be reducing any bass boom from that big peak.

There's nothing there to me that screams of the truly horrible that you are implying. It should at least be listenable.

Can you PLEASE try to describe the sound other than "worse" and "junk"?
 

Galliardist

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OK, I broke the habits of a lifetime and listened to your video.

The sound is nowhere near as bad as I expected! It's not my kind of music, but hardly matters. I'll put the treble rolloff down to the mic for now, that can be improved with full DIrac if it's down in the room. Vocals are clear, I can hear every word. Treble sounds OK. In other words, the speakers are plenty good enough there.
Bass - ugh. It does sound a bit better without the Dirac to me.

Does that concur with what you are hearing in the room?

If that's right then changing speakers without other changes won't help much.

Can you put the sub back, crossover at the highest frequency available to you and make another video?
Have you tried the books under the speakers thing I suggested earlier?

I'm thinking that the R3s are exciting the desk a lot more than the Muso did and that's a big chunk of your problem.
 

caught gesture

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Can you return the Nad and get a refund or has that window of opportunity passed? I think you are spending far too much money on the wrong components for your particular needs and possible placement. Is your desk in its current orientation the only possible option in the room? Do you have absolutely no way of getting the speakers off the desk and onto stands? What are the room dimensions?
People are trying to help you, but I think you are on a path that is obviously not the best for you. Some small powered monitors on recoil stands and a small subwoofer under the desk would have been my solution considering the limitations of the space. Genelec would be a name at the top of my list.
I do think that you could improve what you have no by getting the speakers decoupled from the desk, moving them further from the wall behind, etc, but at this point I’m not sure you are going to be happy. Your regular reference to your car stereos leads me to believe that you are looking to replicate that immersive sound environment in your desk listening setup. That’s going to be really difficult, if not impossible, with two speakers badly placed, no matter how much you spend on them.
 

Galliardist

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Can you return the Nad and get a refund or has that window of opportunity passed? I think you are spending far too much money on the wrong components for your particular needs and possible placement. Is your desk in its current orientation the only possible option in the room? Do you have absolutely no way of getting the speakers off the desk and onto stands? What are the room dimensions?
People are trying to help you, but I think you are on a path that is obviously not the best for you. Some small powered monitors on recoil stands and a small subwoofer under the desk would have been my solution considering the limitations of the space. Genelec would be a name at the top of my list.
I do think that you could improve what you have no by getting the speakers decoupled from the desk, moving them further from the wall behind, etc, but at this point I’m not sure you are going to be happy. Your regular reference to your car stereos leads me to believe that you are looking to replicate that immersive sound environment in your desk listening setup. That’s going to be really difficult, if not impossible, with two speakers badly placed, no matter how much you spend on them.
All sensible, but you need to read the other half dozen threads to understand how we reached this point - everything you've said has been covered, multiple times.

Our best approach at the moment is to try to make what is there work as well as possible. At the moment Bladest is wanting to replace the speakers with something more expensive. Quite frankly, I'm happy for him to do that, or take up your suggestions, or keep what he has: but none of those options are any good until he has a grip on what is wrong today, with his current stuff.

While I don't like working from videos, it appears that he has bad bass and that is to do with the desk and placement. Dirac is just modifying the bass output of the desk in effect.
 

VintageFlanker

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Trying to guess the next @bladest threads to come...

"My R3s suck. Is getting the Revel F328Be an upgrade? How much % better?"

"Is it OK to put the F328Be on a desk?"

"Is the M33 a good pairing with F328Be?"

"My F328Be sucks. Any idea of other speakers in the 500 - 25 000€ range?"

"Is it safe to drink water while listening to my system?"
 

antcollinet

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will kef wireless ls 50 ii sound better in my cool rented basemant, compared to kef r3, without stands both models or it will be same?
they will be in same place.
If the problem is room and speaker placement - why do you think changing the speakers (and not those things) are going to make it better?
 

Galliardist

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If the problem is room and speaker placement - why do you think changing the speakers (and not those things) are going to make it better?
Well, if I understood the sound in the video properly, speakers with no bass output and very low volume output would ameliorate the issue, no problem.

Of course, then he'd have no bass:(
 
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