Lyngdorf MP-40 2.1 AV Processor Review

[Vacceo]

The whole discussion was more of a small talk, while he was setting up Altitude at my place. If I remember correctly, customer [super VIP for them] wanted to have only blue VU meters so they opted for McIntosh Processor.

He was not complaining about the measurements as such, which I assume is pretty straightforward, but about how hard and time consuming is to get proper results, as Room Perfect is pretty automated and has only limited options for calibrator/end user to really influence the final result. So it ended with plebeian MiniDsp getting better results than Lyngdorf in managing multi-subs and helping Lyngdorf to sound acceptable for HT purposes. In his opinion it is more a lifestyle product for design conscious customers that works best in living rooms etc, but not for serious dedicated HT's.

Mac had included Dirac on their latest AVR. What surprises me is the lack of information in it's capacity to use DLBC. That is a limitation also shared by Primate and to be fair, it makes no sense to not allow the user to get the full software.

Those special functions impact performance. These products have a chain of signal processing components. Each work independently which means each needs its own digital headroom to avoid overflow. The net result is that you loose good bit of dynamic range relative to a simple DAC.

When I first started testing these products, I rated them the same as 2-channel products. If I had continued, they would all get poor to fair results. In other words, someone looking for an excellent solution wouldn't find any and differentiation would get lost among the products. By creating their own category, they compete among each other. Should one of them at some point become competitive with 2-channel products, they would stand out and get the recognition they deserve.

How much dynamic range is lost? I guess it depends on device and software, but any examples of numbers you have tested?

Do any of them reach at least CD quality once room correction has been applied?

 

[ChenHui]

The interfaces of this product are truly impressive in their richness. Perhaps the niche market is what drives the high unit price. If there were more buyers, the price might drop a bit. With this price, one could buy a decent small car.

 

[Holmz]

I know this review is primarily about audio, but three HDMI inputs on a flagship A/V pre/pro is simply unacceptable. Five seems to be the minimum with most having 6-7.

I suppose it might seem unacceptable in some SOTA sense… but ours seems to provide an easy to use basis for a combined 2-channel + HT set up.
It sounds perfectly fine… “room perfectly fine”, in fact.

 

[amirm]

How much dynamic range is lost? I guess it depends on device and software, but any examples of numbers you have tested?

I have been told at least 10 dB.

 

[beagleman]

At $1,000 a channel, obviously quite over-priced, but appears quite decent measurement wise.

 

[Vacceo]

I have been told at least 10 dB.

So with an AV10 you'd barely reach CD quality if not a bit below.

It's not that terrible, but still...

 

[Holmz]

So with an AV10 you'd barely reach CD quality if not a bit below.

It's not that terrible, but still...

The visual track of the movie usually results in more things happening that the brain needs to process.
I am not sure how important having absolute best audio quality is in the grand scheme of things.

^That^ said, then room correction part does a fair bit to aid the sound.

 

[Fidji]

So with an AV10 you'd barely reach CD quality if not a bit below.

It's not that terrible, but still...

Good enough for sound mould with Dynamic Range of 5dB, that we are being served last 20 years.
[latest Atmos mixes being absolutley refreshing with DR of 11-15db]

 

[Vacceo]

The visual track of the movie usually results in more things happening that the brain needs to process.
I am not sure how important having absolute best audio quality is in the grand scheme of things.

^That^ said, then room correction part does a fair bit to aid the sound.

If I were to spend the cost of a Lingdorf, AV10 or similar processor, you can be sure I'd use it for music, films, videogames and even the doorbell.

Would a total SINAD in the 90's make me doubt it? Not a millimeter; If I could afford it, I'd get it today.

That said, further improvements are absolutely welcomed.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Good enough for sound mould with Dynamic Range of 5dB, that we are being served last 20 years.
[latest Atmos mixes being absolutley refreshing with DR of 11-15db]

View attachment 371185

I don't know where this information comes from but I just checked the waveform for a random track on I/O Brightside Mix ("This is Home") and the dynamic range in the just the first 5 seconds is at greater than 20dB:

 

[Fidji]

I don't know where this information comes from but I just checked the waveform for a random track on I/O Brightside Mix ("This is Home") and the dynamic range in the just the first 5 seconds is at greater than 20dB:

View attachment 371228

The DR (Dynamic Range) is based on the difference between the average RMS (Root Mean Square, measures the average loudness) level and the maximum level (peak). It allows to represent the dynamics of a piece of music with values ranging from 1 to more than 20.


Analyzed: Peter Gabriel / I/O (CD2 - Bright-Side Mix)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR5 -0.20 dB -8.12 dB 5:18 01-Panopticom
DR6 -0.20 dB -8.03 dB 4:21 02-The Court
DR7 -0.20 dB -10.63 dB 6:19 03-Playing For Time
DR5 -0.20 dB -7.25 dB 3:53 04-I/O
DR4 -0.20 dB -6.57 dB 6:48 05-Four Kinds Of Horses
DR5 -0.20 dB -7.38 dB 5:22 06-Road To Joy
DR8 -1.36 dB -12.56 dB 4:52 07-So Much
DR4 -0.40 dB -5.62 dB 6:02 08-Olive Tree
DR6 -0.71 dB -9.99 dB 6:03 09-Love Can Heal
DR5 -0.33 dB -6.82 dB 5:05 10-This Is Home
DR8 -0.45 dB -11.09 dB 7:45 11-And Still
DR5 -0.40 dB -7.24 dB 6:49 12-Live And Let Live
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR6

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: PCM
================================================================================
Algorithm TT DR Offline Meter (or compatible)

 

[NTK]

The DR (Dynamic Range) is based on the difference between the average RMS (Root Mean Square, measures the average loudness) level and the maximum level (peak). It allows to represent the dynamics of a piece of music with values ranging from 1 to more than 20.


Analyzed: Peter Gabriel / I/O (CD2 - Bright-Side Mix)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR5 -0.20 dB -8.12 dB 5:18 01-Panopticom
DR6 -0.20 dB -8.03 dB 4:21 02-The Court
DR7 -0.20 dB -10.63 dB 6:19 03-Playing For Time
DR5 -0.20 dB -7.25 dB 3:53 04-I/O
DR4 -0.20 dB -6.57 dB 6:48 05-Four Kinds Of Horses
DR5 -0.20 dB -7.38 dB 5:22 06-Road To Joy
DR8 -1.36 dB -12.56 dB 4:52 07-So Much
DR4 -0.40 dB -5.62 dB 6:02 08-Olive Tree
DR6 -0.71 dB -9.99 dB 6:03 09-Love Can Heal
DR5 -0.33 dB -6.82 dB 5:05 10-This Is Home
DR8 -0.45 dB -11.09 dB 7:45 11-And Still
DR5 -0.40 dB -7.24 dB 6:49 12-Live And Let Live
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR6

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: PCM
================================================================================
Algorithm TT DR Offline Meter (or compatible)

The maker of DR Meter misuses the term dynamic range. This term is already widely understood to mean something different. They should simply stick with the standard measurement method of loudness range (LRA) as published by EBU.

Reference:

Loudness range: A measure to supplement EBU R 128 loudness normalisation

The ‘Loudness Range’ (LRA) measure and the algorithm for its computation is introduced and explained in detail. Loudness Range is supplementary to the main audio Programme Loudness described in EBU R 128.|

tech.ebu.ch

 

[amirm]

So with an AV10 you'd barely reach CD quality if not a bit below.

??? The 10 dB deduction is already reflected in the measurements. You shouldn't subtract it again.

 

[pseudoid]

Thank you for the review @amirm,
I gave the Lyngdorf a GolfingPanther vote as thanks to the member for sharing. I also liked the 18 'emojis' on the rear panel.

How do companies get around the old restrictions for "Zone2" Coax-Out and HDMI-Out2?
Is the quality of these signals forced to be of lower-resolution output(s)?

 

[Vacceo]

??? The 10 dB deduction is already reflected in the measurements. You shouldn't subtract it again.

Oh! So the signal already goes through the dsp even if room correction is not activated?

I didn't know that, thanks!

 

[AuricGoldfinger]

I think the unit maybe a dud, seems like one that is functioning correctly will provide that 106 throughout.

At this price I’d find it hard to excuse any duds, but this example was well within it’s specs.

I have some reservations about buying something like this that may later be determined to use proprietary programming or unlabeled chipsets. I has a $12k pre-power combo from Classe, and when it encountered a problem the only place that would fix it was the manufacturer. It was maybe six years old and I was told by them it was obsolete, so the components would have to be manually replaced. Stacks upon stacks of little boards, $1000 each.

 

[Holmz]

If I were to spend the cost of a Lingdorf, AV10 or similar processor, you can be sure I'd use it for music, films, videogames and even the doorbell.

Would a total SINAD in the 90's make me doubt it? Not a millimeter; If I could afford it, I'd get it today.

That said, further improvements are absolutely welcomed.

Luckily I found a used Lyngdorf a while back.
(But it was still 2-3x what I wanted to spend.)
There is absolutely no local support for a trinnov, etc.
And the requirements included needing to be easy enough to operate the other half can use it.
It has achieved that.

The DR (Dynamic Range) is based on the difference between the average RMS (Root Mean Square, measures the average loudness) level and the maximum level (peak). It allows to represent the dynamics of a piece of music with values ranging from 1 to more than 20.


Analyzed: Peter Gabriel / I/O (CD2 - Bright-Side Mix)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
…

It was good of you to show both peak is and average.

Last night we had on “Searching for Sugarman” which was on Apple video instead of NetFlix.
And the volume was 12dB higher.

Similar with “SBS OnDemand” needing a lot more volume to get to the same “subjective listening level”.
The movie was still as good as ever, and no one complained about the sound.
But it was still pretty interesting to see/hear how much more headroom, or how much less compression, can vary between service platforms.

My suspicion is that any hand full of dB delta between SOTA performance, and measured performance is likely not as much as the delta between having the audio track served out highly compressed, versus in a more “raw” form.
I suspect somewhere other than in MP3, and other CODEX documentation, there is some analysis on how the compression affects the SINAD.

 

[GXAlan]

I have some reservations about buying something like this that may later be determined to use proprietary programming or unlabeled chipsets. I has a $12k pre-power combo from Classe, and when it encountered a problem the only place that would fix it was the manufacturer. It was maybe six years old and I was told by them it was obsolete, so the components would have to be manually replaced. Stacks upon stacks of little boards, $1000 each.

Even things like the classic Denon A1 HDCI has unobtanium parts. The real travesty is when companies like Sony make a $25K projector VPL-VZ10000ES released 2017, discontinued 2022 and there are no longer spare parts for it.

In a way, as long as a company like Trinnov doesn’t go out of business (and it shouldn’t, unlike esoteric hifi) since their platform is largely built around an Intel PC, it should be much more repairable in the future. The jury is out on the new Nova platform which runs an ARM cpu, but I presume it’s running Linux as well.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

What am I getting from this product (besides RoomPerfect) over my Denon x3700 that I paid $700 for?

 

[jhaider]

What am I getting from this product (besides RoomPerfect) over my Denon x3700 that I paid $700 for?

More and better bass management options - including use of “boundary subs” along with a main LFE channel, nicer outward build quality. 10s to hundreds of man-hours less to get good results. And what you lose (assuming you stick with Audyssey) is a pretty good (not HTP-1 or RME ADI-2 grade, but pretty good) loudness compensation.

But IMO these kinds of questions are besides the point. Yes there’s cheaper stuff from “mainstream” brands. But unlike a lot of expensive gear this one does have unique selling points that may be of real value to listeners.