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Luxman SQ-N150 Review (Tube Amplifier)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 229 75.1%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 55 18.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 8 2.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 13 4.3%

  • Total voters
    305

Waxx

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Point to point? Looks more like a circuit board with a couple of bus bars soldered onto it...
RIght, and it does not even look that good in design neighter. Especially that PSU looks a bit wonky. If you use a linear psu you should have enough capitance filtering, even with a voltage regulator behind it. Those tiny elco's won't do that.

And the transfo's look very small indeed. They should be bigger to be good, even for an EL84 in push pull config.

For comparising reasons, this is what a slightly cheaper tube amps (but EL34 output) of very high reputation looks like on the inside:
 

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anmpr1

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Futtermans gave vastly non-flat frequency responses with most speakers.
It was always an item with limited capability. No doubt about it. I'm talking about the original H3 series; the ones Julius handmade in his Manhattan apartment, and the few that were sold OTC by Harvard Electronics in the mid '60s. They were supposed to work well with the Quad, and a few of the then remaining high-impedance loudspeakers, mostly from GB, like the 16 ohm Tangent. Anything that didn't require much current capability.

Warranty claims (at least according to Harvey--take that for what it is worth) for the later 'monster' NYAL amplifiers mostly centered around their use with 'typical' low impedance high-end loudspeakers (the kind that anyone who could afford the amplifiers were want to use). Some have claimed the amps were basically unstable, regardless. Maybe they were, but I wouldn't discount Harvey's explanation for sure. I guess at those prices, for owners it was like using the cabin heater on their Testarossa. Hot air worked fine in the summer, but if snow was falling you couldn't count on it! ;)

However it was, both Julius and Harvey (and their amps) are long gone, so for my part it's just historical speculation. I certainly would never have considered owning such outliers, even if I could have afforded them. Something like this little Luxman is infinitely more practical. And that's saying a lot.
 

SIY

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It was always an item with limited capability. No doubt about it. I'm talking about the original H3 series; the ones Julius handmade in his Manhattan apartment, and the few that were sold OTC by Harvard Electronics in the mid '60s. They were supposed to work well with the Quad, and a few of the then remaining high-impedance loudspeakers, mostly from GB, like the 16 ohm Tangent. Anything that didn't require much current capability.

Warranty claims (at least according to Harvey--take that for what it is worth) for the later 'monster' NYAL amplifiers mostly centered around their use with 'typical' low impedance high-end loudspeakers (the kind that anyone who could afford the amplifiers were want to use). Some have claimed the amps were basically unstable, regardless. Maybe they were, but I wouldn't discount Harvey's explanation for sure. I guess at those prices, for owners it was like using the cabin heater on their Testarossa. Hot air worked fine in the summer, but if snow was falling you couldn't count on it! ;)

However it was, both Julius and Harvey (and their amps) are long gone, so for my part it's just historical speculation. I certainly would never have considered owning such outliers, even if I could have afforded them. Something like this little Luxman is infinitely more practical. And that's saying a lot.
I had a pair of the originals with lots of paralleled 12B4. Unless you had something like Magnepans, frequency response varied wildly. This was an inevitable consequence of the high output Z.
 

MaxBuck

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Short rise times and no overshoot on square wave, signal to noise of 88 db, and gets to 30W rated power with <1% distortion. SS amps may have more power and somewhat higher signal to noise, but with efficient speakers, a non-cavernous room, and music other than full orchestras I don't think those are necessary.
Okay, assuming you're right on all these counts, what's the purpose of buying a tube amp when far superior performance can be obtained from a solid state amp at a small fraction of the price? Pretty lights? Is there something else there, there?

Like vinyl, I just don't understand the reason people continue to buy stuff like this.
 

Waxx

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Okay, assuming you're right on all these counts, what's the purpose of buying a tube amp when far superior performance can be obtained from a solid state amp at a small fraction of the price? Pretty lights? Is there something else there, there?

Like vinyl, I just don't understand the reason people continue to buy stuff like this.
very simple, because they prefer the sound they make. Not everybody wants the ultraclean sound of modern class d amps and digital files. Some like a healhy bit of harmonic distortion and the typical vinyl sound. But you don't have to understand that, just accept that it is...
 

Katji

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Amir,

Thanks for your review. Now you know all about "synergy" and "careful system matching" that the experienced audio enthusiasts were doing in the 20thC.

An Infinity R253 with 87dB/2.83V connected to an amplifier that maxes out a just above 10W is dynamically constrained... and sounds wooly, thick. It doesn't matter whether it's this Luxman or a Tripath TA2020 based amp.

Now connect a 97dB/2.83V speaker and this amp performs like a 120W power amplifier!

With glorious overtones and the special effects, not unlike a musical instrument (pre)amplifier- it can make for an experience like no other...

Some people like this. And I get that. Musical production or re-production.

That's ok, but at that price I demand a good phono stage. The price is serious.
 

DanielT

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Drive some 8 Ohm compression drivers, which have around 108-109 dB, with weak power tube amp. It works well.:D:p

Borrowed DIY single end tube amp with 300B power tubes, 6.7W before clipping, and XD125 drivers in attached pictures. I just plugged in to test. Therefore, it looks a bit messy.:facepalm:

 

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DanielT

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Short rise times and no overshoot on square wave, signal to noise of 88 db, and gets to 30W rated power with <1% distortion. SS amps may have more power and somewhat higher signal to noise, but with efficient speakers, a non-cavernous room, and music other than full orchestras I don't think those are necessary.
What does it matter if the distortion and even noise in a sensible SS is still not audible?The only thing I can think of is that you think it's cozy with glowing tubes (it's cozy , I will give it that) and maybe, even if it is audible, distortion in tube amp that is. If you like that kind of colored sound?!

To land in reality: to get that at .... US $3,295.... come on! Seriously, it's ridiculous. There are other, much cheaper, tube amps that can fix that. :)


Edit:
And for such a classic it is used prices that will be stable, see attached picture.
(Tip, do not buy such an old tube amp if you do not know electronics. General tip. I do not know the tube electronics, service, recap and so on, but the tip I can give. Submit, if necessary, to a professional repairer, who charges per hour = expensive.)
 

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Katji

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What is completely ridiculous is a 3+ K integrated amplifier that makes 10 very distorted watts and requires handpicking a set of speakers with efficiency > 90db to drive the volume of sounds to somewhat loud levels (95 db peaks). I would also add that in these perilous time the efficiency of an amplifier in turning electrical watts into sound is one important consideration.
With this - in this context - you start with the HE speakers and then choose the amp. With some commitment to HE speakers. But I think there are other contenders that are less expensive - maybe the price of the Luxman is relatively lower in Japan.
 

Bill Brown

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I used none of those terms in my review. People who use amplifiers for what they do, simply amplify, rightfully are puzzled why people pay thousands of dollars for what is a noise and distortion factory. Nothing you showed from JA's measurements changed this. As to me measuring more, the purpose of my evaluation is to do just enough to assess the products of engineering and fidelity quality. It is not my job to help reverse engineer a product, dig into its design, etc. Yes, comments are made here and there but I am not here to turn every review into a science project. Unlike JA, I have tons and tons of gear waiting to be tested. I rather get through those than to give you this and that other measurement. No other conclusion could have been reached with more testing than what I did.

Now look at JA's conclusion:

View attachment 213079

Who do you think got it right? You think his measurements show excellence? If so little power and so much noise and distortion is excellent, what on earth is not?

You really have lost the plot with your commentary.
I know you didn't say those things, and assumed that people who read the review and subsequent comments knew that too. Should have used a multiquote format but not that facile.

Perhaps nothing in JA's measurements changed the conclusions you and your readers would have reached, but I think there is additional worthwhile scientific information in them (and they are in no way complicated). It's fine if you don't want to do additional measurements, though, as there are many products that reach this site's definition of high fidelity (including the amp I chose to purchase). In light of the number of products you have in the queue you should consider saying "no tube amplifiers currently achieve the performance of products considered high quality on this site, so will not be measured" (especially when more thorough measurements and more accurate technical analysis is available elsewhere).

I didn't comment on JA's conclusion (love the huge font, btw). That has nothing to do with the objective data that he presented, upon which only I based my commentary.

How have I lost the plot, and why so defensive? This is just science, isn't it? I only stated objective things (none of which you refute) and math. People could then decide their significance. The square waves shown also nicely demonstrated the resonance in the OT. I am having a hard time not quoting (well, guess I am) "forgot it has an output transformer." Aside from the historical OTLs mentioned (Futterman) and Atmasphere currently, what percentage of currently and historically marketed tube amps have output transformers? > 99%?

Bill
 
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Bill Brown

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More important than the spectra is having the training to be able to hear distortion. There is massive difference between people when it comes to their ability to hear non-linear distortion. This is why I included listening tests and my impression of such. You didn't hear such comments from other reviewers because they simply are unqualified to evaluate such gear.

As to above chart, I always run a much better of it for my amplifier tests. I did the same here but just realized I forgot to put it in the review. It is there now:

Your first paragraph is quite confidently stated! And while your last sentence is probably true in some cases, you certainly paint with a broad brush. So you are not only the master of measurements but also the leading authority in subjective evaluation? Impressive.

And yes, the table you show below your statements does show what JA's did in a different format (though yes, you do test at more individual frequencies). So maybe "JA's measurements add nothing" wasn't true before you included yours. Not sure how the way you show it is "much better." I like to see it as a spectra, especially as there are links with an amplifier's harmonic distortion pattern and psychoacoustic perception.

Bill
 

DSJR

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There seems to be a market in Japan for budget tubes, 3w and 5w from triode.co.jp.

I doubt many of these are sold in Europe and the USA, I know from a main dealer the big solid state integrated Luxman machines are very popular. There are enough local tube amp manufacturers. A friend has EL84 with Lockwood Tannoys, mostly for classical, hugely enjoyable.
Decca and EMI couldn't wait to get rid of their Tannoy Lockwoods, as they were so terribly coloured I was told by a mastering engineer. Back then, the first issue and M series B&W 801's on stands was a good choice (big HH amp driven) which still sounds ok today and perhaps better than the current stuff they're given to use.
 

DanielT

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It seems to be a bit of a sport to find suitable speakers for tube amps with little power and tube amps who get angry and do not want to work well with low-ohm dipping speakers. I can understand that.The challenge. That sport. I understand that but there is nothing that interests me in any case.:)
... like finding a 90's DAC that's good ... when there are new ones now, that cost around $150, that work flawlessly and do not color the sound. It is also a sport.:D

Invest time, energy and money on speakers instead.Pure ( low distortion noise) , many nice amp watts, there is a lot of nowadays. Tube amps has thus, in that respect, played its role in HiFi.

Edit:
In addition, Class D amplifiers and active speakers are here to stay and also the tune of the future within "High End". I'm convinced of that.:)
 
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Bill Brown

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One more question.
Given this unit has large amount of power supply noise, is this even a good candidate for the use condition?
Harmonics, I guess you can make a case for being part of the experience.
Regarding my earlier question... It seems you are in semi-agreement this isn't the best implementation on the planet. And it seems that the measurements confirm, not the best.
Back to my head-scratcher, PS noise on an amp that is best paired with sensitive speakers? Lots of discussion about missing measurements or methodology. But this amp just doesn't seem OK to me. And it seems like we are all saying almost the same thing!!!

The graph you show isn't a measure of the amplifier's noise, but of THD+Noise. This graph gives a better impression of the amp's noise floor.

1119Lux150fig04.jpg

Certainly not up to the standard's of many of the excellently-measuring amps here, but very good good for the breed. With huge transformers (and occasionally inductors/chokes), magnetic coupling into the circuits is not uncommon. They have done a good job here. So the question is whether you will hear this noise at the listening position and are the distortion products audible. Re. the noise, I suspect you might hear some with your ear against the speaker (especially if the speakers are very sensitive), but no way at the LP. And of course many amplifiers here are "as quiet as a tomb" (including my Benchmark).

Bill
 
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I had a Cayin with the same specs and always felt it was just blah compared to my solid states. It was my final journey into tubes.

Gorgeous Japanese amplifier...just beautiful. But what I pretty much expected when you'd review.

Definitely HiFi porn pics.
Cayin is chinese.
 

Pirx

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[...] The problem is using tube technology and producing so little power. [...]
I strongly disagree and I'm surprised you end with such conclusion.
When you measure crap made from silicon you never wrote "the problem is using silicon technology". Why? It's obvious, because it is not true.

So please, be more precise - as long as you don't know schematics, details about used components, internal construction etc, you cannot tell what is wrong with this amplifier - it is a bad amplifier - I admit, but in my opinion you come to far with conclusion about reasons.
That one sentence show you are biased or correct me if I'm wrong.
For me it was not "technical opinion" at all :-(
 

Bill Brown

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But this amp just doesn't seem OK to me. And it seems like we are all saying almost the same thing!!!

I understand how you can reach that conclusion, and don't necessarily disagree (I bought a different amp in a similar price bracket). And yes, we are, though I thought the added context of speaker sensitivity, distortion spectra, etc. was reasonable.

Re. the first, Amir mentioned a typical speaker being 82db sensitive. Let's contrast that with a horn-loaded system with a sensitivity of 102db (yes, they exist). Next, let's pick a listening level, say 105db (arbitrary, but there are frequent discussions on DIY tube forums re. power needed to produce reasonable volume in systems of "x" sensitivity, and in the world of limited output power, 105db at max amp power is reasonable- though not for all, and there are good reasons that might be true).

To produce our 105db per speaker, the horn system needs 2 watts (and will almost always be operating off the chart to the left (X axis) of Amir's curves on the distortion measurement he added (300mW) at normal listening levels). The "typical" (though I would never buy one that sensitive) would require 200 watts. If you wanted, on huge transients, to hit 116db, it would be 25 W and 2510 W, respectfully. When choosing amplifiers to pair with speakers, it really is "horses for courses."

BTW, you might be shocked re. how inefficient speakers are in converting electrical power from the amplifier into acoustic power. For the 82 db speaker it is 0.1%. For the very, very sensitive horn speaker it is 10%. For speakers that I would consider more typical and consider purchasing, say 89 db, it is 0.5%.

Bill
 

Bill Brown

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I would also add that in these perilous time the efficiency of an amplifier in turning electrical watts into sound is one important consideration.

See above. If this is an important consideration for you, then you should be pursuing a fully horn-loaded system.

Bill
 

DanielT

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I know this is OT and you who write in the thread are fully aware of this, but for those of you who read without writing in the thread:

Check out the HP-LP filter, on Wikipedia.
Tube amps are not, no other power weak amplifiers either, good at driving low bass frequencies. You can see in front of you how fat bass drivers move. Power is needed for that. Power -force- movement. Plus keeping them, sub drives, in check=! damping. Sub = brute (though not very sophisticated) power is needed. So regarding low powerd amp. Let them take care of the higher frequencies. Relieve them of that sub bass task. They will "breathe better" then.:)
 
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Bill Brown

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You don't consider this high?

Relative to the state of the art? Definitely high! No doubt. The question is one of audibility and power level. Could you or I here it? Amir says he can, and there are studies that show it is possible. Perhaps we could. If we could hear it, how would it sound? Probably euphonic. Is that why when reviewed purely subjectively it is praised? Maybe. Or is it tube amplifier's non-finite output impedance interacting with a typical loudspeaker's impedance curve? Or is it the simple (compared to SS) circuitry like some think (though this amp is a bit more complex than some)? Or is it because of sighted listening and the fantastic looks of the amplifier and the glowing tubes where you can imagine seeing electrons jump from the cathode to the plate (it's actually the opposite, but no matter)?

If one is considering a tube amplifier, these are things you have to consider, think about. Knowing the circuit topology SIY (definitely) and I (certainly less), could predict reasonably well the performance/distortion level and spectra that would be measured, and could venture a not-completely uneducated guess as to how those levels might be perceived subjectively. So again, tube amplifiers will never meet the criteria by which components are judged here, so a blanket statement could be made and they could be removed from the queue.
 
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