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Luxman SQ-N150 Review (Tube Amplifier)

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 229 75.1%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 55 18.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 8 2.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 13 4.3%

  • Total voters
    305

MakeMineVinyl

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I remember enjoying my audition of this amp at few years back.

At this point, can we say we sometimes enjoy Lo-Fi sound that covers some dynamic in order to bunch and blend some details together? is this what this multitone shows?
Its going to obscure some details, yes, and at the same time create some 'details' of its own. Think of advancing the 'texture' and 'clarity' sliders in Photoshop.
 

captainbeefheart

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I remember enjoying my audition of this amp at few years back.

At this point, can we say we sometimes enjoy Lo-Fi sound that covers some dynamic in order to bunch and blend some details together? is this what this multitone shows?

Depends on what speakers you were using and how hard you were pushing the amp. If you have very efficient speakers the amp could sound great seeing you'll be on average below 1 watt of power. But it's a completely different story trying to drive power hungry speakers, the amp won't have detail and will be falling on it's face the whole time.

I would like to see more listening reviews where there is at least some effort into pairing the amp under test with a speaker that it will work well for. Yes this amp could be designed a lot better but with the right speakers like mine (105db/1watt) I'm sure it would sound great because I wouldn't be asking much from it in terms of power, and 1 watt or less the distortion isn't going to mask as much detail and possibly even add a little detail. My ears don't mind a small amount of low order harmonic distortion.
 

DonH56

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The point of this site is not really listening impressions; IIRC, @amirm added those under protest. Plenty of subjective sites for that. Nor is it likely he'll run out and buy some sort of highly-sensitive (likely compression driver, horn-loaded) speakers just for this; not the focus of ASR, and people seem to keep missing that he used the most sensitive speakers he had and placed the MLP very close to them to reduce the power needs.

But I suppose this is the 'net, where the dead horse can be flogged forever, long after the carcass has disappeared into the grass...
 

Waxx

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And there are enough tube amps that have way better measurments and even can sound very clean. This is a classic push pull amp that is bad designed, with measurments worse than many single ended triode amps (who should have more harmonic distortion). I'm shure that the amp i have (a Prima Luna Prologue 4, an older model of the brand) measures better, and would give it to Amir to measure without hesitation if he did not live at the other side of the world... And Prima Luna is not the only brand who does it much better. Amir did measure a very old design, the Dynaco ST-70 (a 1950's design) that still scored a lot better, and i've seen ohter brands measured (not online so no names) that even went with SINAD scores in the 60's.

And altough i'm a tube amp lover, i also have to admit it's old tech that is noisy. But i like the sound and the noise (that is almost all harmonic distortion) they make. I like it more than the superclean technically almost perfect amps that many like here. But not this amp...
 

Ken Tajalli

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And there are enough tube amps that have way better measurments and even can sound very clean. This is a classic push pull amp that is bad designed, with measurments worse than many single ended triode amps (who should have more harmonic distortion). I'm shure that the amp i have (a Prima Luna Prologue 4, an older model of the brand) measures better, and would give it to Amir to measure without hesitation if he did not live at the other side of the world... And Prima Luna is not the only brand who does it much better. Amir did measure a very old design, the Dynaco ST-70 (a 1950's design) that still scored a lot better, and i've seen ohter brands measured (not online so no names) that even went with SINAD scores in the 60's.

And altough i'm a tube amp lover, i also have to admit it's old tech that is noisy. But i like the sound and the noise (that is almost all harmonic distortion) they make. I like it more than the superclean technically almost perfect amps that many like here. But not this amp...
Is it really badly designed ?
Or is it badly implemented?
A few tweaks here and there would improve those numbers greatly.
 

levimax

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Is it really badly designed ?
Or is it badly implemented?
A few tweaks here and there would improve those numbers greatly.
"A few tweaks"? I am sure if you modeled the circuit in CAD software you could find better values of some of the components for better performance and then de-solder the components and try the new values, retest for performance and stability and repeat until it works right hoping you don't ruin the circuit board or end up having to solder in "daughter boards" with additional components to get it to work right. That might be a fun project for something found in an attic but it doesn't seem appropriate for a "high end" $3200 amp from a famous company.
 

captainbeefheart

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The point of this site is not really listening impressions; IIRC, @amirm added those under protest. Plenty of subjective sites for that. Nor is it likely he'll run out and buy some sort of highly-sensitive (likely compression driver, horn-loaded) speakers just for this; not the focus of ASR, and people seem to keep missing that he used the most sensitive speakers he had and placed the MLP very close to them to reduce the power needs.

But I suppose this is the 'net, where the dead horse can be flogged forever, long after the carcass has disappeared into the grass...

Then don't do listening tests at all and stay true to the "point of this site" if some effort isn't going to be put forth. Amir doesn't seem to be starving or even "middle class", he is pretty successful guy and a pair of efficient speakers does not need to be purchased brand new. In $6 a gallon of gas world we live in today I don't have much left of my paycheck at the end of the week yet I can still find deals on very efficient used speakers that would give some of the lower power amps he tests a much better chance of sounding the way they are intended to be heard. I mean he even purchased a pair of GR research "giant killers" to test them which he would have been better off just throwing the money into a fire.

It appears I'm not the only person that has mentioned this since the horse's carcass is in the grass and long dead as you say. The reason it's probably brought up so much is the fact listening tests are done here and this is a hugely popular audio review site, it only makes sense to keep improving and move forward not stay stagnant. I mean he has the most advanced test equipment for audio gear you can have, what's $500 for some efficient speakers to test lower powered amplifiers? No matter how much anyone wants to deny it the low power amp crowd is growing larger and larger and tubes are coming back in style.

I love all types of gear but it's sad to see tubes just aren't given a proper chance on here. There are good tube amps out there that can even power Amirs current speakers but he seems to keep testing the worst tube gear possible.
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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I love all types of gear but it's sad to see tubes just aren't given a proper chance on here. There are good tube amps out there that can even power Amirs current speakers but he seems to keep testing the worst tube gear possible.
Unfortunately tube amp manufacturers don't seem to be striving for good technical performance these days. Current consumers equate tube amplifiers with high distortion and manufacturers want to give them more of that.

It doesn't have to be that way and it wasn't when tubes were the current state of the art but that's what it is now.

Almost my entire system is vacuum tube but not the dirty designs which are current now.
 

DonH56

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Then don't do listening tests at all and stay true to the "point of this site" if some effort isn't going to be put forth. Amir doesn't seem to be starving or even "middle class", he is pretty successful guy and a pair of efficient speakers does not need to be purchased brand new. In $6 a gallon of gas world we live in today I don't have much left of my paycheck at the end of the week yet I can still find deals on very efficient used speakers that would give some of the lower power amps he tests a much better chance of sounding the way they are intended to be heard. I mean he even purchased a pair of GR research "giant killers" to test them which he would have been better off just throwing the money into a fire.

It appears I'm not the only person that has mentioned this since the horse's carcass is in the grass and long dead as you say. The reason it's probably brought up so much is the fact listening tests are done here and this is a hugely popular audio review site, it only makes sense to keep improving and move forward not stay stagnant. I mean he has the most advanced test equipment for audio gear you can have, what's $500 for some efficient speakers to test lower powered amplifiers? No matter how much anyone wants to deny it the low power amp crowd is growing larger and larger and tubes are coming back in style.

I love all types of gear but it's sad to see tubes just aren't given a proper chance on here. There are good tube amps out there that can even power Amirs current speakers but he seems to keep testing the worst tube gear possible.
Amir @amirm tests the gear he is sent. He does not routinely go out and buy components to test, certainly not rather expensive components like this, and when it is not something he is really interested in. It's his time and money, after all, not mine to dictate, no matter how wealthy I think he may be. Originally the plan IIRC was not to do listening tests, but a bunch of members complained, leading to this mess of "you listened but not the right way, with the right speakers, etc. etc. etc." It's easy to say "you should do this and that instead" when it is not your time and money at stake.

A lot of us own, or have owned, tube equipment. Including designers who have repeatedly explained the problems with this particular amplifier and presented much better examples, many including measurements, that represent good tube amplifier performance. If you have some good equipment, send it to Amir to test if you are curious. My perception is many people shooting the messenger without putting up anything of their own except snarky comments.

IME many inexpensive, generally smaller, speakers are not highly sensitive. They trade sensitivity for low-frequency response by padding the mid/tweeter drivers, wasting power and sensitivity for a more extended low end response.

I have no idea how much the low-power crowd is growing. A lot of things may come back into style driven by marketing and nostalgia. That does not mean they are any better the second time around.
 

captainbeefheart

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Unfortunately tube amp manufacturers don't seem to be striving for good technical performance these days. Current consumers equate tube amplifiers with high distortion and manufacturers want to give them more of that.

It doesn't have to be that way and it wasn't when tubes were the current state of the art but that's what it is now.

Almost my entire system is vacuum tube but not the dirty designs which are current now.

I completely agree. I think they strive for higher distortion to set them apart in listening tests from your typical squeaky clean amplifiers. People are easily fooled by slight increase in volume which they almost always say sounds best because it's slightly louder or some audible low order distortion will be preferred by some. If they make them too clean people will just say it doesn't sound any different than their less expensive transistor amps so why spend more on tubes for the same sound.

Some of the oldest designs, say a Williamson circuit which is easy to make and not that expensive I measure .1% THD at 20 watts. This is a design with no active loads, no special tricks or anything just a basic push pull circuit from the 1940's. That's not the triode version which I prefer due to not needing much power with my speakers, the triode version typically measures <.1% THD at 15 watts. At my listening level power (<1watt) distortion is not audible, even with high dynamics and needing the higher power distortion is still not audible with these amplifiers. I use the Williamson circuit as an example because it's easy to build, its one of the most cloned circuits ever, and it really sounds amazing. This is a design from the 1940's so why aren't modern manufacturers even coming close to this quality? I can only guess they want distortion to set their gear apart from the crowd. Euphoric distortion to some will be new and exciting adding a new dimension to the music they are used to hearing on your typical SS hifi amp. Back in the day where tubes was the only thing we had the engineers wanted low distortion, now it's all upside down and topsy-turvy.
 

captainbeefheart

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Amir @amirm tests the gear he is sent. He does not routinely go out and buy components to test, certainly not rather expensive components like this, and when it is not something he is really interested in. It's his time and money, after all, not mine to dictate, no matter how wealthy I think he may be. Originally the plan IIRC was not to do listening tests, but a bunch of members complained, leading to this mess of "you listened but not the right way, with the right speakers, etc. etc. etc." It's easy to say "you should do this and that instead" when it is not your time and money at stake.

A lot of us own, or have owned, tube equipment. Including designers who have repeatedly explained the problems with this particular amplifier and presented much better examples, many including measurements, that represent good tube amplifier performance. If you have some good equipment, send it to Amir to test if you are curious. My perception is many people shooting the messenger without putting up anything of their own except snarky comments.

IME many inexpensive, generally smaller, speakers are not highly sensitive. They trade sensitivity for low-frequency response by padding the mid/tweeter drivers, wasting power and sensitivity for a more extended low end response.

I have no idea how much the low-power crowd is growing. A lot of things may come back into style driven by marketing and nostalgia. That does not mean they are any better the second time around.

Well I may send him an amp to test, I already know how they test so it does nothing for me but it will show the community tubes don't have to be poor performing. The issue is I already know if it's not at least a 50 watt amplifier Amir won't like how it performs on his speakers so it will be a big heavy amp to ship and I'd have to build one since all my amps are <20 watts since I don't require much power for great sound. So is it worth me spending a small fortune to get a decent tube amp review on here? Probably not. If this was 3 years ago and I didn't have to pay $180 to fill my gas tank I would probably have the extra money to spare to do this sort of thing but not now.
 
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The point of this site is not really listening impressions; IIRC, @amirm added those under protest. Plenty of subjective sites for that. Nor is it likely he'll run out and buy some sort of highly-sensitive (likely compression driver, horn-loaded) speakers just for this; not the focus of ASR, and people seem to keep missing that he used the most sensitive speakers he had and placed the MLP very close to them to reduce the power needs.

But I suppose this is the 'net, where the dead horse can be flogged forever, long after the carcass has disappeared into the

Gotcha. Won’t expect any ‘listening impressions’ furthermore.
 

DonH56

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Well I may send him an amp to test, I already know how they test so it does nothing for me but it will show the community tubes don't have to be poor performing. The issue is I already know if it's not at least a 50 watt amplifier Amir won't like how it performs on his speakers so it will be a big heavy amp to ship and I'd have to build one since all my amps are <20 watts since I don't require much power for great sound. So is it worth me spending a small fortune to get a decent tube amp review on here? Probably not. If this was 3 years ago and I didn't have to pay $180 to fill my gas tank I would probably have the extra money to spare to do this sort of thing but not now.
I think most of us are well aware that there tube amplifiers (etc.) that perform very well, not sure this community needs further proof? OTOH it might be nice to have a "good one" in the list. Certainly some highly-regarded tube amps have been reviewed and come up lacking in performance but I do not blame Amir for that. Going into this review, who would have suspected such a relatively low level of performance from a Luxman product, listening tests aside? I can look at websites like @SIY's or Atmos-Sphere (go Ralph) for examples of tube amps that measure and sound good. I think the take-away here is not "all tube amps are bad", but that this one has "issues", and the great thing about ASR is that we have technical experts who can (and did) describe what those issues are and how they may be fixed. As well as examples of other, better, tube amps.

I tend to ignore most listening tests (other than my own). They tend to confirm the measurements and/or the reviewers' preferences so do not add much to me. That said, I do pay attention to a (very) few subjective reviews, with a nod to the reviewer's preferences and how well they align to my own. I respect @amirm and @Kal Rubinson , for example, but tend to focus on things they like that match my likes. I appreciate Amir's comparisons of DACs and higher-power SS amps, for example, and Kal's extensive knowledge of multichannel processors and SACDs (though I am not into opera), but would not likely spend time reading Amir's listening impressions of a SET amp or Kal's vinyl reviews. ;) When Amir finds a bug in a DAC and shows it to be audible, or struggles with a user-hostile interface, I note it. I blame Kal for my current processor since he spent time with it in his system and wrote about its features (and some cons); reading some "real-world" experience is really great, and yeah you have to consider the reviewer's world in comparison to your (my) own.
 
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DonH56

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Gotcha. Won’t expect any ‘listening impressions’ furthermore.
I'm sure he'll continue to provide them. Like any subjective review, you must (IMO) take into account the reviewer's likes and dislikes, including his equipment. In the end how it sounds is up to you. If a reviewer does not like the things I like, equipment, speakers, music, etc., then I simply don't read his subjective impressions. I don't attack the reviewer, it is his (her, it, whatever) preference and different than mine so no big deal.

What ASR provides is technical data rarely provided elsewhere so you can weed out the chaff (bad stuff) and/or determine what sort of things you like, measurements notwithstanding. I loved my old tube gear whilst understanding why and that its performance was below most of my SS gear. But some of it measured superbly! I just am not willing to attend to its care and feeding the way I did back then, and don't have space in my media room for a dedicated tube system -- it is all multichannel stuff down there. Plus I have a lack of time for serious listening, too many other things going on these days.

Speakers are another area where I tend to deviate from technical "perfection" because I loved my old Magnepans despite their flaws. Amir's measurements (and subjective listening tests) were no surprise to me as I was well aware of their shortcomings and foibles. I like them (and him) anyway. Of course, we now have the same main speakers, but that was coincidence -- I did not realize that until after I had decided to buy mine.

By and large, the sharp technical types here (I do not claim to be one as audio is outside my main area of expertise) will not argue or belittle someone's preference, but take issue with folk claiming technical superiority of an inferior product when the opposite is readily demonstrated.

Takes all kinds... - Don
 

AdamG

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Well I may send him an amp to test, I already know how they test so it does nothing for me but it will show the community tubes don't have to be poor performing. The issue is I already know if it's not at least a 50 watt amplifier Amir won't like how it performs on his speakers so it will be a big heavy amp to ship and I'd have to build one since all my amps are <20 watts since I don't require much power for great sound. So is it worth me spending a small fortune to get a decent tube amp review on here? Probably not. If this was 3 years ago and I didn't have to pay $180 to fill my gas tank I would probably have the extra money to spare to do this sort of thing but not now.
Hi Capt,

Since your new here, relatively speaking, I edited and removed a small portion of your above quoted post. We don’t permit Any Political Content here, so I’m sure you can figure out what was cut from your reply. Please avoid Political commentary in the future. Thank you for your understanding and assistance.
 

captainbeefheart

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Hi Capt,

Since your new here, relatively speaking, I edited and removed a small portion of your above quoted post. We don’t permit Any Political Content here, so I’m sure you can figure out what was cut from your reply. Please avoid Political commentary in the future. Thank you for your understanding and assistance.

Duly noted for the future, sorry for the political slip.



Back to the topic.

I agree that most tube amp lovers on here know that there are good ones out there, in fact Sy and others on here are extremely brilliant with tubes. I just don't want the noobies being turned away from what I find a really fun hobby. I can design SS amplifiers and have some that I purchased that I listen to but for me it's much funner to tinker with tubes and I enjoy the sound just the same as any well designed amplifier of any topology.

Don't get me wrong, Amir does a fantastic job with what he is doing for the community but I can't be the only tube lover that would love to blow Amir away with a tube amp and yes get one put on the list that isn't in the last two spots for SINAD score lol.
 

Bleib

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A perfect partner to the GR speaker
 
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