The way I see it, this forum is primarily a technical one, so I'm wondering if there's a reason why you don't share photos of the internal circuit boards or information about the chips being used?
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Lundahl Sound VC2361 6-Channel Volume Control Review
- Thread starter amirm
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My Benchmark HPA4 has 0.5dB volume steps, but a 0.5dB step is barely perceptible. If I turn the volume of music up and down, I usually make adjustments of at least 2 - 3dB.
I've just ordered a VC2361 unit from Karl for my fully active setup which is under construction.
I will have a 48/16 TOSLINK from the TV and up to 96/24 S/PDIF from a Justboom Digihat on a RPi4 running RoPieee, handled via an autoswitcher:
Thread 'automatic digital input switch' https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/automatic-digital-input-switch.10992/
The switch's S/PDIF output will feed a Motu Ultralite Mk5 connected to a fanless miniPC running Mitch Barnett's Hang Loose Convolver. Crossover and room correction filters will be generated in Acourate. 6 x balanced analogues from the Motu (up to +21dBu) will be fed via the Lundahl VC2361 to 2 x Benchmark AHB2s for the mid and treble and dual mono Hypex Nilai 500 Class D amps for the bass, all in low gain setting.
There are probably less complex ways to achieve this, however, I need a setup where it's easy for my wife to be able to switch between music and TV watching.
The VC2361 should arrive on or around 30th October.
Will update once it arrives.
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My VC2361 finally arrived today. It's heftier than expected, weighing in at 3.2 kg. Nice aluminimum case with 3mm thick top and bottom panels and a 10mm front panel with an attractive very matte white powder coat finish.
The review photos don't really do it full justice.
Comforting to know that all of the connectors on the rear are made by Neutrik:
And all direct PCB mounted:
42 relays, 7 per channel - HFD31/5 5 Volt, 2 Amp DPDT signal relays. There's a not insignificant cost here just in relays.
The volume control remains fully balanced from input to output (no single-ended conversion cheating going on here!)
Volume knob rotation is very smooth, almost frictionless, with faintly perceptible detents from the rotary encoder.
I was initially a little puzzzled by the Du Pont connectors on the front panel LED legs, but I've just realised it's an effective way of disabling the LED should you choose to.
At power up, it comes on in muted state, so no risk of mishaps at turn on or after a power outage.
At the price paid (GBP 1,105.23 including exchange rate, shipping and import charges), I feel it represents good value. It's measurably transparent, well made and comes with a remote.
You can pay (a lot) more for a stereo passive attenuator and this has 6 channels. 8 would be nice, to enable a fully-active 3-way with subs, but if I decide to go that route, I can always buy another one.
The review photos don't really do it full justice.
Comforting to know that all of the connectors on the rear are made by Neutrik:
And all direct PCB mounted:
42 relays, 7 per channel - HFD31/5 5 Volt, 2 Amp DPDT signal relays. There's a not insignificant cost here just in relays.
The volume control remains fully balanced from input to output (no single-ended conversion cheating going on here!)
Volume knob rotation is very smooth, almost frictionless, with faintly perceptible detents from the rotary encoder.
I was initially a little puzzzled by the Du Pont connectors on the front panel LED legs, but I've just realised it's an effective way of disabling the LED should you choose to.
At power up, it comes on in muted state, so no risk of mishaps at turn on or after a power outage.
At the price paid (GBP 1,105.23 including exchange rate, shipping and import charges), I feel it represents good value. It's measurably transparent, well made and comes with a remote.
You can pay (a lot) more for a stereo passive attenuator and this has 6 channels. 8 would be nice, to enable a fully-active 3-way with subs, but if I decide to go that route, I can always buy another one.
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I thought the Motu Mk5 had a volume control? The Motu us also capable of 10 channels right? Is there a need for this device?
The Motu's volume control is digital, and even with the low gain settings on the amps, I'd have to attenuate the volume pretty substantially, so SNR and ultimately bit depth would likely suffer. Also, the Motu doesn't have a remote control.
Sure, It's possible to control it remotely via Cuemix 5 running on a device on the same network, but it's not ideal and not something I'd want to entrust to anyone else in the household. It's only a slip of a digit to max out a nearly a kilowatt of amplification into my speakers.
Of the few options on the market for multi-channel volume control, the Lundahl was by far my best option.
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Understood. I do it with an Okto 8 Pro, can also set separate levels for each channel. Seems a shame to need 2 boxes to do this.
I considered the Okto 8 Pro, but Keith_W recommended a multi-channel interface instead due my need to have an input from Roon and an optical input from the TV whilst keeping everything spouse friendly.
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Not sure about that advice.
The okto is perfect all in one, can do crossovers/dsp internally - dont even need a computer, and has more than enough digital inputs for Roon, TV etc. With an analogue to AES/EBU converter can even run analogue sources. Its one of the simplest/most spouse friendly setup I can think of. I guess the minidsp units are another good option with arc/earc input as well.
PC - digital interface - analogue preamp, to me seems complicated and last decade's way of doing things. I know - because thats how i did it lol
In any case, you have awesome components and I am sure it will sound terrific.
From reading Okto's description and manual for the 8 Pro, DSP and active crossovers still need to be done in an external PC connected to the DAC, no? There's no mention of internal crossovers/DSP.
Also, no means of connecting the TOSLINK from the TV.
I needed a way of taking a digital input from Roon and the TOSLINK output from the TV, applying convolution filters for the active 3-way crossovers, applying room correction and being able to do all that with a remote volume control and my Mrs not needing to access the PC to switch from music to the TV.
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The internal chipset in the Okto can do crossovers/filters etc. Obviously not as much resolution or processing power as FIR convolution filters in Roon - but do you need all that for watching TV?
You can do both - have the complicated setup for critical listening via Roon/USB and then switch to simpker setup for watching TV. Toslink to AES/EBU is very simple.
But if you really want simple - minidsp with TV hdmi arc/earc is superior - only need one remote to watch tv and control volume on a multichannel setup.
How is it accessed? There's no reference to this in the Okto manual. I assume the crossovers functionality is fairly basic though?
I could have done a fully active setup in Roon, but I have a lot of convolution filters in there for 3 different setups and equalisation of half a dozen pairs of headphones.
Accidental mis-selection of a convolution filter risks sending unfiltered stereo output to the speakers and toasting drive units not designed for full-range signal.
The only miniDSP with ARC/eARC and balanced outputs is the FlexHTx. It's pretty expensive and seems to be fairly rudimentary in terms of its processing capacity and filter capabilities. No FIR or linear phase.
I appreciate my chosen setup is maybe last decade, but there's nothing on the market currently which has the capabilities I need:
Selectable digital stereo inputs, multi-channel output, able to handle standard format FIR, linear phase filters and with balanced outputs, oh, and low enough latency to avoid lip-sync issues with TV and movies.
@gfinlays
www.audiosciencereview.com
HTH!
Okto DAC8 update with DSP
This just arrived in my email inbox and looks very promising indeed: Dear audio enthusiasts, it’s a pleasure to reach out again after too long a silence. We at Okto Research have been eagerly developing something special, and we couldn’t be more excited to share our latest innovations with you...
www.audiosciencereview.com
HTH!
johny_2000
Addicted to Fun and Learning
This is a pure analog design. Much respect to the team at Lundahl for incorporating their best audio transformers into the final product.
The Lundahl VC2361 doesn't have any transformers it's purely resistor and relay based.
Also, Lundahl Sound Systems is a different company from Lundahl Transformers AB. It was discussed earlier in the thread.
The Bespoke Audio passive preamp costs somewhere from £15,000 (copper wiring) to £21,665 (silver wiring). There are no measurements published to compare its performance, but it certainly falls into the "audio jewellery" category. Even if it's technically transparent, it's pricing is way over the top.
The Lundahl VC2361, whilst not having input switching does measurably transparent volume control for less than a tenth of that.....
Also, Lundahl Sound Systems is a different company from Lundahl Transformers AB. It was discussed earlier in the thread.
The Bespoke Audio passive preamp costs somewhere from £15,000 (copper wiring) to £21,665 (silver wiring). There are no measurements published to compare its performance, but it certainly falls into the "audio jewellery" category. Even if it's technically transparent, it's pricing is way over the top.
The Lundahl VC2361, whilst not having input switching does measurably transparent volume control for less than a tenth of that.....
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I spent a few hours yesterday and today making up colour coded cables to connect the Lundahl between the Motu and the power amps:
Operating in 2-channel passive stereo at the moment to test eveything out before setting about delving into Acourate to build the active crossovers. I can't hear any difference between the Motu/Lundahl and my previous Benchmark DAC3HGC/HPA4 setup. Not surprising really, given the comparable THD+N figures.
Volume control is relatively leisurely via the remote, an almost hypnotic tick-tock sound as the relays engage and disengage, reminiscent of an old clock. The central button on the remote serves as a mute control.
I'm really pleased with it.
If I do go down the route of adding subs, Karl is open to discussing the possibility of a custom solution, so there may be the opportunity for more than 6 channels in the future. I think there's certainly a market for it.
It's a pretty unique device. Sure, SPL makes the Volume 8, bit it's not a properly balanced design - it converts to single-ended for the volume control, then back to differential mode at the output again. It's also based on a standard Alps pot, and channel balance is not spectacular. Also, it's an active device, with a ca. +20 dBu output limit. The Lundahl is passive and able to operate with higher signal levels. The Volume 8 also has no remote option.
Operating in 2-channel passive stereo at the moment to test eveything out before setting about delving into Acourate to build the active crossovers. I can't hear any difference between the Motu/Lundahl and my previous Benchmark DAC3HGC/HPA4 setup. Not surprising really, given the comparable THD+N figures.
Volume control is relatively leisurely via the remote, an almost hypnotic tick-tock sound as the relays engage and disengage, reminiscent of an old clock. The central button on the remote serves as a mute control.
I'm really pleased with it.
If I do go down the route of adding subs, Karl is open to discussing the possibility of a custom solution, so there may be the opportunity for more than 6 channels in the future. I think there's certainly a market for it.
It's a pretty unique device. Sure, SPL makes the Volume 8, bit it's not a properly balanced design - it converts to single-ended for the volume control, then back to differential mode at the output again. It's also based on a standard Alps pot, and channel balance is not spectacular. Also, it's an active device, with a ca. +20 dBu output limit. The Lundahl is passive and able to operate with higher signal levels. The Volume 8 also has no remote option.
TheLastGerman
Active Member
"There's a not insignificant cost here just in relays." Well, um ... 42 of these relays cost an astronomical € 97.65 incl. VAT at RS.
That's nearly 10% of the retail price of the unit just in relays. Design, engineering, PCB manufacture, 12 Neutrik chassis XLRs (another ~€30), programming, the chassis and machining, powder coating, it all adds up. Oh, and manufactured in Sweden.
At the price, I feel it represents good value.
The only other balanced multi-channel volume control on the market is the SPL volume 8. Channel matching isn't the best, it's not truly balanced - the actual volume control circuitry is single-ended, there's no remote and maximum output is 21 dBu.
I've had regular contact from Karl Lundahl personally regarding how I'm getting on with the unit and whether it has met my needs.
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Ralf Stocker
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I see this device critically. The high output impedance of 3.5k can cause THD and THD+N in the subsequent stage. The AP analyzer does not show anything like this because its input stages are perfect. Furthermore, the strongly fluctuating input impedance of 6-360K cannot be good if the source is not optimal. Similar effects can probably be observed here.
Really? It's pureley resistive in nature and the amplifiers that follow all have input impedances > 50 kohm.
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