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LSR 305 and 308 discontinued.............read below

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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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The intresting thing to me is the physical engineering in the wave guide, is it obsolete given the advances in dsp?

Can we not control directivity / off axis performance without the lump of well formed plastic ?

If so you'll need more than one driver in each frequency range. My guess is even then they wouldn't work as well as a good waveguide. Of course in time that might be overcome or made a small enough difference it doesn't matter. Things like the Kii and Dutch & Dutch appear to be doing just that.
 

12B4A

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It will be interesting to see if Apple's cheapshit plastic solution for directivity will provide a better result than JBL's Pulse Design Group's cheapshit plastic solution.
 

oivavoi

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On waveguides, there are obvious reasons for them. Dutch & Dutch uses them also for example. Still, I do think it's likely that most waveguides will color the sound in some way or the other. Form a tract with your hands and put them before your mouth when talking, and the sound will change. That's just how it is. Perhaps it might not always be audible, and there are clearly designs that do a better job than others. It seems reasonable to me that more narrow waveguides will color the sound more than shallow and broad waveguides. And many things in audio is a trade-off: The benefit of controlling dispersion may outweigh the slight coloration (which might not be audible). But I would find it very surprising if a given waveguide did not color the sound at all.
 

FrantzM

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On waveguides, there are obvious reasons for them. Dutch & Dutch uses them also for example. Still, I do think it's likely that most waveguides will color the sound in some way or the other. Form a tract with your hands and put them before your mouth when talking, and the sound will change. That's just how it is. Perhaps it might not always be audible, and there are clearly designs that do a better job than others. It seems reasonable to me that more narrow waveguides will color the sound more than shallow and broad waveguides. And many things in audio is a trade-off: The benefit of controlling dispersion may outweigh the slight coloration (which might not be audible). But I would find it very surprising if a given waveguide did not color the sound at all.

Hi

Let's get a few things out of the way: All transducers "color" what they reproduce in some ways. Some more in objectionable/discernible fashion than others. This said, cupping your hands around your mouth can hardly be a proof of horns issues. Horn and driver geometries are avery important issues and just placing your hand to your mouth is not the best way to find the best driver/horn coupling or optimal horn geometry for any purpose... save from shouting across some distance (Dispersion/Efficiency control by the way)
I have come to take horns (and waveguide) more seriously than ever. I would suggest to any audiophile, budding or experienced, to go out and purchase a pair of those dirt cheap speakers ( In Audiophile land $300 doesn't register as a purchase of an almost complete audio system, which is what those speaker are. Add a cheap DAC (Topping or equivalent) a pair of cheap subs (Parts Express <$200 15-inch subs) a miniDSP .. Buy Acourate or Dirac or Acolense or whatever, a Unimik then download REW. Study, learn, measure and you may (will?) end up with a dangerously great sounding <$1200 audio system, capable of startling, realistic SPL . If anything it will help you learn how to get the best of your mega dollars/Euros audio shrines ...It may also reveal many flaws from those as well... Very rarely in audio land do we get so much for so little ...
 

oivavoi

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FrantzM: I don't mean to detract from horns/waveguides. I have listened extensively to the 305s and 308s, I think they are amazing value for money, and it's usually what I recommend to non-audiophile friends who ask for advice. And I'm fully aware that there's been done much research into the shape of horns/waveguides, and it may very well be that the best one don't do any audible coloration at all. With digital eq it obviously becomes even easier to reach a good result. I have heard some stunning mega sized horn systems which blew me away. But given my understanding of how sound waves function, I would find it surprising if any given waveguide had absolutely zero influence on the sound (beyond dispersion).
 

Sal1950

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Let's get a few things out of the way: All transducers "color" what they reproduce in some ways. Some more in objectionable/discernible fashion than others. This said, cupping your hands around your mouth can hardly be a proof of horns issues. Horn and driver geometries are avery important issues and just placing your hand to your mouth is not the best way to find the best driver/horn coupling or optimal horn geometry for any purpose... save from shouting across some distance (Dispersion/Efficiency control by the way)
Yes I thought the same when I first read that post, I thought we had gotten beyond that ole stab at horn/waveguides long ago.
Whatever their weaknesses, I wouldn't own anything else,
YMMV
 

oivavoi

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Yes I thought the same when I first read that post, I thought we had gotten beyond that ole stab at horn/waveguides long ago.
Whatever their weaknesses, I wouldn't own anything else,
YMMV

Come on Sal, it's not a "stab" to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of various speaker technologies? I have no problem acknowledging that come and dome speakers usually struggle to present the same lifelike dynamics as horns, for example.

As for the substance here: when sound waves bounce off a surface they will change. I dont think that's controversial at all. Here's some science for ya: http://kolbrek.hoyttalerdesign.no/index.php/blag/28-higher-order-modes

And that's from a guy who's a huge horn fan.
 

Sal1950

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Come on Sal, it's not a "stab" to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of various speaker technologies? I have no problem acknowledging that come and dome speakers usually struggle to present the same lifelike dynamics as horns, for example.
Tap your finger on any speaker cone and it make a resonate sound of it's own too.
Measurements or not, it's still been a cheap shot that been used to poke fun of horn owners for more years than I care to remember.
Usually by people that wouldn't know a ohm from a volt it you crammed them down their throats. :eek:;)

But it's OK oivaoi, I won't hold it against ya. :p
 
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Blumlein 88

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Tap your finger on any speaker cone and it make a resonate sound of it's own too.
Measurements or not, it's still been a cheap shot that been used to poke fun of horn owners for more years than I care to remember.
Usually by people that wouldn't know a ohm from a volt it you crammed them down their throats. :eek:;)

But it's OK oivaoi, I won't hold it against ya. :p

I have done the Tact Room Correction on some old K-horns. Much of the "horn" sound is shoutiness from uneven response mixed with spiky peaks. Smooth those out and you lose the horn-sound in the negative sense while retaining all the dynamic goodness of such an efficient speaker. Now the correction for that is extreme in places and probably doesn't 100% eliminate the negatives. It gets us much further than halfway there. I'm thinking some modern more sophisticated horn profiles would make this easier to correct. I seem to remember Klipsch was working on cycloidal and hyper-cycloidal horn profiles for this reason at one time.
 

Soniclife

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I have done the Tact Room Correction on some old K-horns. Much of the "horn" sound is shoutiness from uneven response mixed with spiky peaks. Smooth those out and you lose the horn-sound in the negative sense while retaining all the dynamic goodness of such an efficient speaker.
Interesting, I've always wondered if the dynamic bite of horns was distortion or the efficiency, good to know it's the efficiency. So if horn speakers were designed like modern camera lenses, where easy to fix optical problems are fixed by code, freeing up the designers to make smaller faster lenses, then we could have the benefits of horns with no drawbacks. I wonder if this approach is part of the JBL approach.
 

Frank Dernie

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So if horn speakers were designed like modern camera lenses, where easy to fix optical problems are fixed by code, freeing up the designers to make smaller faster lenses.
Couldn't help smiling here! The most noticeable feature of modern fast lenses is how enormous they are! I remember an interview with The Leitz chief designer years ago who said, in effect, it is easy to design a good lens if size and weight isn't constrained :)
Compare a Leica 50mm f1.4 size with any of the much vaunted new stuff, it is a HUGE difference, are they better - not often - are they cheaper - mainly!
 

Soniclife

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I remember an interview with The Leitz chief designer years ago who said, in effect, it is easy to design a good lens if size and weight isn't constrained :)
That's the point I was trying to make, in engineering the requirement is often a list of things like they want it smaller, lighter and stronger, if digital processing can reduce or remove one of the requirements it's going to be easier to deliver the others.
Compare a Leica 50mm f1.4 size with any of the much vaunted new stuff, it is a HUGE difference, are they better - not often - are they cheaper - mainly!
I've never understood how Leica lenses are so small, how do they do it and no one else can? The lack of auto focus motor is part of it, but surely not the main part.
 

Frank Dernie

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That's the point I was trying to make, in engineering the requirement is often a list of things like they want it smaller, lighter and stronger, if digital processing can reduce or remove one of the requirements it's going to be easier to deliver the others.

I've never understood how Leica lenses are so small, how do they do it and no one else can? The lack of auto focus motor is part of it, but surely not the main part.
Reading about lens design I note that some makers use the design tools to make the design less sensitive to assembly accuracy but this leads to bigger lenses with more elements and more significant sample variation. Leica lenses are simpler but much more accuracy sensitive, leading to more expensive lenses. The M lenses have to be small to avoid blocking the optical viewfinder which makes them hard to design and expensive to make compared to lenses for reflex cameras.
Some of their lenses end up being discontinued due to the expense of making them consistently, and end up as collector's items! I used to own a lot of them but have recently sold off most of my collection.
 

jdubs

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Hey All

I have a pair of LSR308s....and was wondering if a should sell them and get a pair of 305s....plus a pair of subwoofers. Would that be a sound quality upgrade? How about a max spl upgrade?

OR, I guess I could get subs for the 308s....if that would be better.

Btw, I would be using a minidsp HD with the monitors and subs.

Thanks!!
Jim
 

watchnerd

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On waveguides, there are obvious reasons for them. Dutch & Dutch uses them also for example. Still, I do think it's likely that most waveguides will color the sound in some way or the other. Form a tract with your hands and put them before your mouth when talking, and the sound will change. That's just how it is. Perhaps it might not always be audible, and there are clearly designs that do a better job than others. It seems reasonable to me that more narrow waveguides will color the sound more than shallow and broad waveguides. And many things in audio is a trade-off: The benefit of controlling dispersion may outweigh the slight coloration (which might not be audible). But I would find it very surprising if a given waveguide did not color the sound at all.

I thought I recalled reading that one of the purposes of the DSP (also for the 7 series and M2) was to reduce these colorations in ways that weren't easy before.
 

watchnerd

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Hey All

I have a pair of LSR308s....and was wondering if a should sell them and get a pair of 305s....plus a pair of subwoofers. Would that be a sound quality upgrade? How about a max spl upgrade?

OR, I guess I could get subs for the 308s....if that would be better.

Btw, I would be using a minidsp HD with the monitors and subs.

Thanks!!
Jim

I've heard the LSR305 + matching sub and thought it was pretty impressive sound for the money.

Not exactly high end, but definitely fun.
 

12B4A

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Hey All

I have a pair of LSR308s....and was wondering if a should sell them and get a pair of 305s....plus a pair of subwoofers. Would that be a sound quality upgrade? How about a max spl upgrade?

OR, I guess I could get subs for the 308s....if that would be better.

Btw, I would be using a minidsp HD with the monitors and subs.

Thanks!!
Jim

I'm not sure why you'd want to go down in size. Can't go wrong with adding subs if you have none now.
 

RayDunzl

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I have a pair of LSR308s....and was wondering if a should sell them and get a pair of 305s....plus a pair of subwoofers. Would that be a sound quality upgrade? How about a max spl upgrade?

I get 30hz with the LSR 308 here (with DRC). That's low. Maybe 26hz at -3dB, at moderately loud listening levels, as measured at 10 feet from the speakers.

upload_2018-3-12_22-27-7.png


Without extra EQ (and -2dB woofer switch set on speakers)

upload_2018-3-12_22-34-22.png


The 305 has less amplifier power, if I remember correctly.

308:
LF Driver Power Amp 56 W Class D
HF Driver Power Amp 56 W Class D

305:
LF Driver Power Amp 41 W Class D
HF Driver Power Amp 41 W Class D

Sound Quality upgrade? Don't know, that's when I unleash the 700W Krell/MartinLogan/cheezesubs.

Max SPL upgrade? Again, less power in the amps on the 305, so probably, no.
 
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watchnerd

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I'm not sure why you'd want to go down in size. Can't go wrong with adding subs if you have none now.

I dunno....personally, I think the 305 mates better with its tweeter than the 308 does. At 1.8 khz, I don't know if the 308 woofer is running too high or the tweeter too low, but the 305 definitely sounds better in the mids to me. I think it images better, too.
 
OP
Blumlein 88

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I dunno....personally, I think the 305 mates better with its tweeter than the 308 does. At 1.8 khz, I don't know if the 308 woofer is running too high or the tweeter too low, but the 305 definitely sounds better in the mids to me. I think it images better, too.
The 305 woofer crosses over lower than the 308. 305 and sub is a good combo. If I already had 308 s I think I would add subs. That combo would have the highest possible spl. You can always swap out for 305s later if you wish.
 
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