LS50 vs LS50 Meta Comparison

[aarons915]

To piggyback off this.... a poor man's blade/reference

I'm building a woofer/sub module for the LS50M. 25" high, with a 12" rs315hf per unit, and a minidsp 2x4hd for crossover duty. The idea being that I can crossover as high as needed, likely between 150 to 300hz 4th order. I can play with that as needed.

The only concern I have is how low I can safely mount the woofer on the baffle to alleviate some floor bounce cancellation, but still remain high enough to crossover seamlessly for 2-3m sitting distances. I'm hoping this will free up some spl and make the whole experience full range.

This begs the question, based on distortion data, what is the ideal place to crossover the LS50M into a 3 way without messing with the point source effect.

The other comments were good and I mostly agree but I do things a bit differently. I try to cross them over as low as possible while still being able to play as loud as I need to play. For me that isn't that loud, I don't even quite hit 85 db at my listening position so a 100Hz 2nd order cross over is fine and localization is no problem at that frequency. Actually because of the natural rolloff of the LS50 I think 2nd order crossovers are better for them, I find 4th order to cut off the bass too sharply. Either way, I think the 1st step is to find a song and record your max listening levels in REW to get an accurate SPL level for your situation, if it is a typical level then 150-200Hz is not necessary.

I do think I could go up to 120-150Hz 2nd order and not have localization of the subs or very minimal though.

 

[muad]

The other comments were good and I mostly agree but I do things a bit differently. I try to cross them over as low as possible while still being able to play as loud as I need to play. For me that isn't that loud, I don't even quite hit 85 db at my listening position so a 100Hz 2nd order cross over is fine and localization is no problem at that frequency. Actually because of the natural rolloff of the LS50 I think 2nd order crossovers are better for them, I find 4th order to cut off the bass too sharply. Either way, I think the 1st step is to find a song and record your max listening levels in REW to get an accurate SPL level for your situation, if it is a typical level then 150-200Hz is not necessary.

I do think I could go up to 120-150Hz 2nd order and not have localization of the subs or very minimal though.

This definitely makes sense and something I'll take into consideration.

I never suspected a 2nd order crossover would work well with the LS50s. I guess that's the nice thing with a minidsp. If I don't like it, I can always go back

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Gonna start the build soon

Edit: do you reverse your phase with the LR2 crossover? Or does that only apply to passive crossovers?

 

[ROOSKIE]

Actually because of the natural rolloff of the LS50 I think 2nd order crossovers are better for them, I find 4th order to cut off the bass too sharply.

This is a good point.
The acoustic roll off is what matters (- not electrical ideals) and the actual way it all ends up blending with sub so measure - measure - measure.


Many subs have a rising response above 100hrz as well they may need adjustment. IE a LR4 may not be rolling of at that rate.

And just to add more confusion I often overlap the woofers and monitors more than typical to help fill in some SBIR related issues and then PEQ any peaks due to overlap.

 

[restorer-john]

I tried convincing myself to keep the Meta but I really like the look of the black edition LS50 so that and the PITA of selling mine was enough to send the Meta back.

So you purchased another pair of KEF speakers, played with them for a bit, and sent them back for no valid reason? What did the poor retailer say?

 

[Danaxus]

So you purchased another pair of KEF speakers, played with them for a bit, and sent them back for no valid reason? What did the poor retailer say?

Is that such a bad thing? Purchase a pair of speakers with the intent of replacing your existing pair. Upon using them, you discover they don't noticeably improve anything over the older model, so you return them with the reason that several years of development and the new meta stuff they marketed, didn't do anything for you.

 

[restorer-john]

Is that such a bad thing? Purchase a pair of speakers with the intent of replacing your existing pair. Upon using them, you discover they don't noticeably improve anything over the older model, so you return them with the reason that several years of development and the new meta stuff they marketed, didn't do anything for you.

Yes, it's a bad thing. Who gets the partially used/opened ones? Who wears the wasted freight, wasted energy, financial losses and annoyance?

Thank goodness in this country consumer laws are such that they protect both the buyer and the seller. Here, returning perfectly functional products for a refund is not a right or a given. Retailers can tell you to go jump in the lake if they want to. Many allow you to return products, but plenty stick to the consumer law and that's a bit tougher.

I'm old school. I do my research, buy only when I am sure and if I screw up in my choice- it's my problem, not the poor retailer.

But, with less and less bricks and mortar stores, I guess these unconventional arrangements can work- just not for me.

 

[Razorhelm]

KEF LS50's converted to active with brickwall linear phase crossovers via rephase and camilladsp!

Thought I would tell you guys about the speaker system I have built over lockdown. Particularly as I have used camilladsp for the crossovers and eq and I didn’t find much about that online outside a thread on diyaudio.com by the amazing author of the software helping people with it and the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

My system might be interesting for those asking about crossing to subwoofers, I crossed at 150hz, with a subwoofer for each channel to make pseudo 3-ways, it works great, sounds fantastic. I have the original LS50's.

 

[aarons915]

So you purchased another pair of KEF speakers, played with them for a bit, and sent them back for no valid reason? What did the poor retailer say?

I ordered from KEF direct, I'm responsible for return shipping and a 5% restocking fee so I also paid for the chance to audition them. In hindsight I probably should have borrowed a demo pair from a dealer like I've done in the past but sometimes a weekend isn't enough time and in this case it took me about a week and a half to really come to a solid conclusion. I see your point but it's getting harder to demo speakers these days and I don't believe an in-store demo tells us a whole lot.

 

[restorer-john]

I ordered from KEF direct, I'm responsible for return shipping and a 5% restocking fee so I also paid for the chance to audition them. In hindsight I probably should have borrowed a demo pair from a dealer like I've done in the past but sometimes a weekend isn't enough time and in this case it took me about a week and a half to really come to a solid conclusion. I see your point but it's getting harder to demo speakers these days and I don't believe an in-store demo tells us a whole lot.

Fair enough.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I think when you're dealing with something as expensive and complicated as High End Audio speakers (especially considering their not inconsiderable margins), it's only reasonable to offer the buyer a right of return even if the speaker is working properly because only an extensive in home audition will really tell said buyer if the speaker is right for their setup and preferences. Amazon offers these kind of returns in the US for almost everything, including computers. Ultimately, it's impounded in their purchase price. Think of that price premium, which every buyer will pay, as a kind of "satisfaction insurance."

 

[phoenixdogfan]

This is a good point.
The acoustic roll off is what matters (- not electrical ideals) and the actual way it all ends up blending with sub so measure - measure - measure.


Many subs have a rising response above 100hrz as well they may need adjustment. IE a LR4 may not be rolling of at that rate.

And just to add more confusion I often overlap the woofers and monitors more than typical to help fill in some SBIR related issues and then PEQ any peaks due to overlap.

When you finally get everything set up to your satisfaction, it might be interesting if you published a MMM FR curve from REW in the home measurements thread. I'm probably going to be doing the same thing when I get my second SB 2000 (had to send the one I bought on Ebay back) sometime next month.

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve had the original LS50 for a couple years now and have wanted to compare them to the Meta ever since they were released. I use EQ to make them more neutral so I wasn’t expecting the meta to be much better but they do have better directivity and therefore are better to EQ. I see a lot of people asking about the originals vs the Meta so decided to write up a more detailed comparison than what I’ve seen done.

Setup:
As some may know, I compare speakers similar to the Harman method, 1 of each speaker in mono as this has been shown to be the easiest to discern differences and I agree after some past trials. I also cross them over at 100Hz and don’t use subs to focus on 100Hz and up. Normally I put both speakers directly in front of me but this time I put one of each on my normal stands to more closely simulate my roughly 15 degree listening angle. I use a windows PC as my source and have a program that allows me to instantly switch from left to right speaker. Here was my setup:

View attachment 239024


LS50 vs LS50 Meta without EQ:
This was a quick and easy comparison, they sounded exactly like they measured. The LS50 were a bit hot in the highs and the Meta were neutral and maybe a bit laid back. In the short term I could see some preferring the original LS50’s highs but in the long term it is no contest that the Meta are the more neutral speaker and would be preferred by most people. Here are the Soundstage listening windows overlaid to show where the differences lie. LS50 in blue and meta is purple

View attachment 239025

LS50 vs LS50 Meta with EQ:
This was much more interesting and the main reason I bought the Metas to try out. I use Equalizer APO with the Peace addon to apply parametric EQ filters to make the LS50 basically as good as they can get and wanted to see if and how much better the Metas could be with EQ since they do have better directivity. This comparison used the Soundstage anechoic measurements and EQ in REW to make them as neutral as I could get them, here are the before and after listening windows that show this, LS50 in blue and meta is purple.

View attachment 239027


You can see that after EQ they are very similar but because the LS50 have an off-axis dip around 4k I was wondering if the Metas would have better highs despite the near identical listening window response. This wasn’t an easy comparison obviously since they are now almost the same speaker but I did hear some differences. I went back and forth, initially I felt they were very similar but the meta just sounded more clear but I found out that was just a trick with how the meta were voiced. Once I applied a high shelf to lower the output of the meta by 1db from 4k and up that went away and they were basically identical. I think the slight dip in the 2-3k region combined with a slight rise from 4k and up made them sound very clear but also crisp in the highs. I feel like both versions of the LS50 are sculpted to be generally neutral but they play tricks on you to sound more detailed in the highs, the Meta do a better job of this because they achieve it without being fatiguing over time.

Either way after swapping speaker positions from left to right and back they were basically indistinguishable to my ears. I tried convincing myself to keep the Meta but I really like the look of the black edition LS50 so that and the PITA of selling mine was enough to send the Meta back. I will say to anyone who doesn’t have the ability to apply PEQ filters, the Meta are amazing as is and definitely worth the upgrade over the original LS50, assuming you don’t like the extra energy in the 2-4k region. Despite the slightly different bass response in the Soundstage measurements, my in-room response was identical between the 2 and either pair greatly benefits from subs offloading the bass under 100Hz or so.

I have to admit that at this point yet another discussion of KEF LS50 speakers tends to make my eyes glaze over with boredom (almost feels like we are living in the time of a new Bose...except the KEF actually measure better).

But...this was very interesting and well done! Thanks for going to the effort and posting the results! Cheers.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Yes, it's a bad thing. Who gets the partially used/opened ones? Who wears the wasted freight, wasted energy, financial losses and annoyance?

Thank goodness in this country consumer laws are such that they protect both the buyer and the seller. Here, returning perfectly functional products for a refund is not a right or a given. Retailers can tell you to go jump in the lake if they want to. Many allow you to return products, but plenty stick to the consumer law and that's a bit tougher.

I'm old school. I do my research, buy only when I am sure and if I screw up in my choice- it's my problem, not the poor retailer.

But, with less and less bricks and mortar stores, I guess these unconventional arrangements can work- just not for me.

I agree with you in part, I test a whole lot of speakers and do not return them them unless they are truly terrible and something that therefore deserves to be returned.
If I am just having fun I chalk up any losses reselling them to the fun of the hobby and I find a lot of deals so often reselling is not a huge loss of $.

The OP did not like the new version much more than the old one in his system, so really that is toeing that line. I suspect he really would have kept them if they indeed were much better. If he purchased them only with the intention of testing and then returning that is sorta meh behavior.

Regardless here in the USA competition is fierce and consumers are usually treated with kid gloves. Returns are extremely common. The benefit though is that folks will take a risk knowing that they can try at home and are not stuck. I suspect many sales are completed just because the buyer feels comfortable knowing they could return but in the end do not. The retailer can sell as open boxed for a discount and while seeming to 'lose' some profit they likely still make some money on the resale and also make a very happy customer out of the new buyer who got a discount. Future sales often await.

 

[restorer-john]

I agree with you in part, I test a whole lot of speakers and do not return them them unless they are truly terrible and something that therefore deserves to be returned.
If I am just having fun I chalk up any losses reselling them to the fun of the hobby and I find a lot of deals so often reselling is not a huge loss of $.

The OP did not like the new version much more than the old one in his system, so really that is toeing that line. I suspect he really would have kept them if they indeed were much better. If he purchased them only with the intention of testing and then returning that is sorta meh behavior.

Regardless here in the USA competition is fierce and consumers are usually treated with kid gloves. Returns are extremely common. The benefit though is that folks will take a risk knowing that they can try at home and are not stuck. I suspect many sales are completed just because the buyer feels comfortable knowing they could return but in the end do not. The retailer can sell as open boxed for a discount and while seeming to 'lose' some profit they likely still make some money on the resale and also make a very happy customer out of the new buyer who got a discount. Future sales often await.

A good point for sure.

 

[tw 2022]

I agree with you in part, I test a whole lot of speakers and do not return them them unless they are truly terrible and something that therefore deserves to be returned.
If I am just having fun I chalk up any losses reselling them to the fun of the hobby and I find a lot of deals so often reselling is not a huge loss of $.

The OP did not like the new version much more than the old one in his system, so really that is toeing that line. I suspect he really would have kept them if they indeed were much better. If he purchased them only with the intention of testing and then returning that is sorta meh behavior.

Regardless here in the USA competition is fierce and consumers are usually treated with kid gloves. Returns are extremely common. The benefit though is that folks will take a risk knowing that they can try at home and are not stuck. I suspect many sales are completed just because the buyer feels comfortable knowing they could return but in the end do not. The retailer can sell as open boxed for a discount and while seeming to 'lose' some profit they likely still make some money on the resale and also make a very happy customer out of the new buyer who got a discount. Future sales often await.

The entire returns issue is baked into the model.. To feel for the manufacturer is to feel sorry for the dump truck that ran you over, because you left blood on the bumper...

 

[MarkS]

But...this was very interesting and well done! Thanks for going to the effort and posting the results! Cheers.

Yes indeed.

I often wonder how much of the audible difference between speakers is just due to small differences in on-axis response. EQing those away (as much as possible) and then comparing is a very interesting exercise.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I have made a number of 2 ways into 3 ways this way.
1/4 wavelength is the typical distances not to exceed, though in the bass there is likely more leeway.
You should be able to place the drivers at the floor and depending on the exact frequency place them closer to the side walls to help alleviate SBIR.

Make sure all distance from boundaries are different.(SBIR)

I sometimes place the monitors on the woofers and other times have placed the woofers closer to the room boundaries and just time aligned them. In my situation crossing at about 150hrz this is no issue.

I suspect near zero benefit to crossing the LS50 META above 150-180hrz*. Obviously test your woofers to ensure they plan there with lower distortion that the LS50 Meta. Some woofers are already starting to 'break-up' and at 200-300hrz and will actually emit higher distortion levels than a high quality mid woofer. Measure them.

My LS50's measure with very low HD distortion above 150 hrz. By 165hrz 3rd order is below 0.2% and 2nd below 1%. 3rd order never rises above 0.2% from 150-20k and 2nd is at or below 0.5% for most of the range from 200-20k.
Below 130hrz Harmonic Distortion rises fairly rapidly and by 90hrz these are hurting.
Small woofers moving at higher excursions can create doppler distortion as well as the IMD issues so a bigger woofer will help there below 90hrz as well along with the easy to measure HD I mention above.

*I plan to cross them in my set-up at 125hrz LR4 to 2 woofers, since they will be 6db down by 125hrz I suspect that will be a great point. Higher would lead to a bit lowered measured distortions but likely zero audible gains. 2% 2nd order distortion at 100 where the LS50 will be down by 8db is hardly going to audible. Woofer excursions are not likely an issue anymore with these numbers either.

*EDIT* published my HD 'specs' without stating they are at [email protected] Can really only be compared with other tests taking with my exact set-up. To summarize the LS50 woofer is exceptional for such a small driver with a great tweeter. That said it is a small driver and higher SPL warrants a 100+ or even better 125+ X-over to minimize potential audible issues.

1/4 wavelength at 150 hz is roughly 23", so if you can get the center of the woofer within about 2 ft of the center of the Uni Q, you should be golden, particularly with a Linkwitz-Reilly alignment.

 

[Doodski]

I'm just shaking my head at you peeps with your the big boogie businessman with speakers deserves no sympathy because it's capitalism man... lol. My opinion is that there is more than enough profit margins if sold properly for a business to survive. It needs closers that know their regional market place and appreciate the products. Customers will come if that is provided. That employs a variety of people that may not otherwise be employed and they can make a decent living. I think I need to go to the local Best Buy and Visions and see what they offer in store.

 

[restorer-john]

I think I need to go to the local Best Buy and Visions and see what they offer in store.

The big box stores have a huge range, plenty of stock and not a single, actual salesman/person on the floor. Nobody who can actually sell, close and get the money in the till.

Things have changed @Doodski. That's why I went from HiFi, to my own businesses, to management and then to property-house/land. Gotta go where sales skills are not only necessary, but hugely rewarded.

 

[muad]

1/4 wavelength at 150 hz is roughly 23", so if you can get the center of the woofer within about 2 ft of the center of the Uni Q, you should be golden, particularly with a Linkwitz-Reilly alignment.

Thanks!

Yeah I think I'll target that for my max CTC distance. The sub will be about 26" tall, so I'll end up within 1/4 wavelength spacing by default.