LS50 meta's plus sub vs More expensive speakers

[steve59]

Is the amp returnable? The Hegel H120 is overpriced by its inclusion of an integrated streamer, not any technical merit.

An $80 amp with a $225 miniDSP 2x4HD is better than even a multi-thousand dollar amp. The ability to properly integrate subwoofers and apply room correction is far too valuable in the pursuit of good sound. This is why I give no weight to how an amplifier or speaker sounds in a showroom. Brain is too susceptible to confirmation bias, we think something sounds better because it should, but it doesn't once you own it long term

How do you base this? If you read the op's posts he said he selected the specific integrated for its sound compared to the rest of the options. System synergy is real.

 

[richard12511]

Is the amp returnable? The Hegel H120 is overpriced by its inclusion of an integrated streamer, not any technical merit.

An $80 amp with a $225 miniDSP 2x4HD is better than even a multi-thousand dollar amp. The ability to properly integrate subwoofers and apply room correction is far too valuable in the pursuit of good sound. This is why I give no weight to how an amplifier or speaker sounds in a showroom. Brain is too susceptible to confirmation bias, we think something sounds better because it should, but it doesn't once you own it long term

Well said. Couldn’t agree more. Certain amps may introduce small variations of 0.5dB or so that might be audible to trained listeners with access to instant switching, but good bass management can vary the response by 10dB+, which makes a massive difference.

 

[Eternals]

Well said. Couldn’t agree more. Certain amps may introduce small variations of 0.5dB or so that might be audible to trained listeners with access to instant switching, but good bass management can vary the response by 10dB+, which makes a massive difference.

@alex-z @richard12511
If it helps, and really grateful for thoughts. I'd tried to keep amp choice as scientific as practicable to reduce bias. I was aware that I'd favoured Rega from speaking to people who own their kit, and I was thinking of the Rega Elicit R, or the Aethos. I took to the HiFi shop my NAD amp, my RPi for playback of my flac files to play via my Topping E30 DAC as well as my speakers. I listened to my favored test tracks for about 45 mins using only my own kit in their listening room to acclimate my ears to how my gear and music would sound there. After that, we swapped through some amps but still using my RPi to play the same flac files via my own DAC. My thinking was that by keeping everything the same except for amplification, any differences that I heard would strictly be from the amplifier. I do appreciate that this wasn't blind testing. However, I really don't like to part with my money and I have no brand allegiances. I tried about 8 different amps and in going backward and forth with the amps, to my ears, the preference was for the the Hegel. I then listened to my flac files via my RPi via its inbuilt DAC. There were pros and cons to the built in DAC. I finally then tried the built in streamer (which only plays via the built in DAC). No noticeable sound change to my ears there. I do think that if I had the skills and knowledge to set up a miniDSP, I could improve my options. However, I wasn't in that position and so had to go with how the music sounded. I'd prefered to avoid amps where my money bought extras like a DAC or a streamer. The Hegel choice caught me off guard as the h90 and h120 were there to let me see how good the Rega's were in comparison, but my ears did prefer the h120 by more than a slight margin. I appreciate that your own listening assessment of h120 will be different to mine, but that may be from our respective experience and preferences. I am still learning!

 

[Willem]

Did you make sure levels were exactly the same?

 

[phoenixdogfan]

the MiniDSP SHD has no FIR capabilities at all, it’s all reserved for Dirac.

I noticed that. Even the 2 x 4 HD has FIR capability.

 

[Eternals]

Did you make sure levels were exactly the same?

Hi @Willem I did try each amp at a range of levels, but again not really as an exact science in trying to achieve the same for each. I tried to find a level that worked well in my usual listening range.

 

[Willem]

If you are comparing two, the levels have to be exactly the same. If not, the louder will seem to be the better one.

 

[MattHooper]

I just came back from listening to my friend's KEF LS50 speakers.

He's not an audiophile, but does appreciate good sound so when he asked about upgrading his speakers one of my suggestions was picking up a pair of used KEF LS50s I spotted on Canuck Audio Mart. He bought them and loves them. He keeps telling me about all the nuances he's hearing in music now. I brought over some speaker stands to help set them up better, today.

This was the first time I've heard the LS50s in a few years. They sounded just like I remembered: beautiful, open, clear, spacious, a tad forward up high, a bit of richness in the upper bass (they were only about 2 to 2 1/2 from the back wall). The sound of a trumpet piece through the LS50s had that beautiful, open, warm golden harmonic timbre that I identify with real trumpets. Right off the bat the LS50s, in the way they produced a wide array of instrumental timbres, from shining triangle bells popping out of a track to the reedy quality of a sax, made his previous cheap speakers sound muffled and tonally "black and white."

Piano was vivid, though with a slight metallic edge to the transients. In fact, though I really enjoyed the sound, my nit picks would center around a slight metallic glaze to the sound. Instruments could certainly sound super clear, but there was an overall slightly "canned" quality to everything, timbrally speaking, to my ears. On my systems at home I get a more texturally present/realistic sound to my ears, less recorded sounding, more like hearing right through the air to the real thing.

QUESTION ABOUT AMPLIFICATION:

My friend first had given me the impression he "didn't really" have an amp for the speakers. After a bit of research I suggested a NAD C316BEE V2 Stereo Integrated Amplifier:

https://baybloorradio.com/audio-com...fiers/nad-c316bee-stereo-integrated-amplifier


as the NAD was available locally at a good price and from what I know, NAD seems to be a pretty responsible company in terms of equipment that actually performs to stated specs. Not much power, but more of a known quantity, and the LS50s/NAD have been at least reviewed together as sounding good.

It turns out, at the moment, my friend's LS50s were hooked up to his Sonos Zone Player amplifier:

https://www.digitalconnection.com/products/audio/zp120.asp

I see it's specified at 55w/channel Class D.

I have no idea if Sonos products perform well to their specifications.

Any input as to whether it makes sense to go with the NAD or if the Sonos is likely going to be at least as good a pairing for driving the KEFS?

Thanks.

 

[MattHooper]

Bumping my question above about amplifiers for the LS50. Thanks.

 

[Ata]

Bumping my question above about amplifiers for the LS50. Thanks.

There are a couple of threads on this very topic:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rs-actually-make-a-difference-for-ls50.19967/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-1-meter-apart-pc-only-desktop-set-up.19580/

I would personally not risk it with amps that have not been measured and borderline underpowered for the application, unless I can borrow and listen in my setup for a week or so. Given the quality of the speakers, and if price/performance is important, I would prefer to go with a Hypex based amp, such as the NAD3x8s or similar. If top performance at a reasonable cost is the objective, I would go with a Purifi based amp such as NAD C298 or similar.

 

[MattHooper]

There are a couple of threads on this very topic:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rs-actually-make-a-difference-for-ls50.19967/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...o-1-meter-apart-pc-only-desktop-set-up.19580/

I would personally not risk it with amps that have not been measured and borderline underpowered for the application, unless I can borrow and listen in my setup for a week or so. Given the quality of the speakers, and if price/performance is important, I would prefer to go with a Hypex based amp, such as the NAD3x8s or similar. If top performance at a reasonable cost is the objective, I would go with a Purifi based amp such as NAD C298 or similar.

Thanks. I was hoping to not go too far down the rabbit hole on this.

My Pal isn't an audiophile and he and his wife are on a budget. Probably $500 on an amp is already pushing it. Also WAF - want as small and discrete looking as possible. Hence my being cornered towards the amp I linked to.

Nothing much is coming up googlind a "NAD3x8."

C298 way out of budget.

 

[Ata]

Thanks. I was hoping to not go too far down the rabbit hole on this.

My Pal isn't an audiophile and he and his wife are on a budget. Probably $500 on an amp is already pushing it. Also WAF - want as small and discrete looking as possible. Hence my being cornered towards the amp I linked to.

Nothing much is coming up googlind a "NAD3x8."

C298 way out of budget.

OK, fair enough. If budget and size/volume are of importance, my goto would be the Yamaha WXA50. It has been on the market for a while so could be found second hand cheap, or new from around USD 400 here in Australia. Measured here and has an ICEpower class D amp + bass management for future extension, plus many other features such as DAC and streamer in a compact and solid body.

The NADs I mentioned: the cheapest one in the series is C328: https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-328-hybrid-digital-integrated-amplifier

 

[MattHooper]

OK, fair enough. If budget and size/volume are of importance, my goto would be the Yamaha WXA50. It has been on the market for a while so could be found second hand cheap, or new from around USD 400 here in Australia. Measured here and has an ICEpower class D amp + bass management for future extension, plus many other features such as DAC and streamer in a compact and solid body.

The NADs I mentioned: the cheapest one in the series is C328: https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-328-hybrid-digital-integrated-amplifier

Thanks. Those are very helpful suggestions! The Yamaha could fit the bill.

 

[Wseaton]

All speakers benefit from using subwoofers, no matter how good they are.

1. Inter-modulation distortion. Every time you go down 1 octave, 4x the cone excursion is required for the same SPL. Cone excursion leads to IMD, adding a sub reduces cone excursion of the speakers.

2. Room modes. Speakers have optimal positioning for stereo imaging which does not align with optimal positioning for room mode reduction. 1 sub is good, 2 is great, 4 is superb.

3. Greater bass extension. Even the best tower speakers only go flat to about 30Hz. $600 subs can go flat to 20Hz.

If you pair the LS50 Meta with a pair of SVS PB-1000 Pro you should have an amazing sounding setup. Make sure to properly high-pass the speakers at 80Hz. Sadly the Hegel H120 lacks this basic feature, so you should implement an AV receiver or miniDSP 2x4HD to handle this.

Every bookshelf speaker made in this over rated category makes serious compromises. They are all essentially a tweeter coupled to a 5-6 woofer that's doing double duty as a midrange. In order to get that driver to not dive like a shot duck under 100hz the driver has to have increased mass and xmax. These attributes hurt midrange clarity. If you want superb midrange clarity and detail you need an extremely fast, aka low mass mid or electrostat/ribbon. Not a woofer that's doing double duty. There's a reason that high end exotic speaker engineers have totally abandoned conventional cone based drivers like this. By making the driver capable of having low distortion at 120hz seriously compromises its ability to really blow your mind at 1500hz.

Give me a bookshelf with a woofer that's 100% optimized to provide max transient detail in legit mid to upper mid and isn't designed to also try and wobble at 80hz to try and pressurize a standard room which it cannot physically do. That would be the ideal sub combo.

Not trying to derail this thread, but I've heard the LS50s and didn't find them much better than the old Thiel CS2's I used to own

 

[Ata]

Every bookshelf speaker made in this over rated category makes serious compromises. They are all essentially a tweeter coupled to a 5-6 woofer that's doing double duty as a midrange. In order to get that driver to not dive like a shot duck under 100hz the driver has to have increased mass and xmax. These attributes hurt midrange clarity. If you want superb midrange clarity and detail you need an extremely fast, aka low mass mid or electrostat/ribbon. Not a woofer that's doing double duty. There's a reason that high end exotic speaker engineers have totally abandoned conventional cone based drivers like this. By making the driver capable of having low distortion at 120hz seriously compromises its ability to really blow your mind at 1500hz.

Give me a bookshelf with a woofer that's 100% optimized to provide max transient detail in legit mid to upper mid and isn't designed to also try and wobble at 80hz to try and pressurize a standard room which it cannot physically do. That would be the ideal sub combo.

Not trying to derail this thread, but I've heard the LS50s and didn't find them much better than the old Thiel CS2's I used to own

"Every bookshelf speaker made in this over rated category", based on what criteria and/or compared to what? I assume you are familiar with their preference scores, the LS50 Meta in particular is nothing to sneeze at.

I understand your concern over Xmax and woofer size. Yes, above a certain SPL things will deteriorate quickly due to physics. But, this thread is about using subs and if you use subs the SPL level where things start to break up will be much higher, as you effectively build a three way speaker. I find SPL with sub to be plenty high for my taste.

If one is worried about LS50 Meta SPL and/or woofer behaviour, one can simply get an R3, also a bookshelf speaker, one of the best measured passive speakers. A 6.5" woofer x-overed at 400Hz. Bookshelf speakers work disproportionally well to their volume, especially when paired with subs, check out the preference scores for each of those combinations.

 

[Descartes]

My set up is the LS 50 metas with a single SVS SB2000, and my original LS 50s as surrounds for when I play movies. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz. This is fairly new set up as I just got the Octo Research DAC 8, and I'm using JRiver as my surround processor and I've yet to integrate Dirac Live, but plan to in the next few days.

I can tell you the Metas sound absolutely great with the single sub. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz, and I played The Dark Knight soundtrack this afternoon. There's point on "Why So Serious?" where there's low sub 20 hz pulsations are played, and even with the single sub my windows literally rattled, so I don't know if I feel I need a second sub. Thing is, human hearing is quite insensitive to distortions below 100 hz. Such distortions almost have to be at levels greater than 100 percent before they become audible at all. Mostly, multi sub set ups are intended to provide even bass levels at different listening positions in a room, so multiple listeners can experience the bass levels the same way, rather than to minimize perceived bass distortions.

How big is your room?
I am looking at the KEF LS50 Meta for my front channels vs the R3! What do you think?

 

[Eruditarian]

Is the amp returnable? The Hegel H120 is overpriced by its inclusion of an integrated streamer, not any technical merit.

An $80 amp with a $225 miniDSP 2x4HD is better than even a multi-thousand dollar amp. The ability to properly integrate subwoofers and apply room correction is far too valuable in the pursuit of good sound. This is why I give no weight to how an amplifier or speaker sounds in a showroom. Brain is too susceptible to confirmation bias, we think something sounds better because it should, but it doesn't once you own it long term

Wondering - what ~$80 amp are you suggesting here would be a good match with the LS50s?
Not trying to be snarky, you could actually save me 900$!

 

[phoenixdogfan]

How big is your room?
I am looking at the KEF LS50 Meta for my front channels vs the R3! What do you think?

My room is small (12 x 12 x 8), but I've heard the Metas can play well enough in medium sized rooms. Obviously, it's not meant for larger spaces.

I've not heard the R3s, but I can tell you the Metas have the magic in my smaller space. I think it has something to do with the uniform horizontal and vertical directivity which I think makes more of a difference when playing in a smaller space.

Different horses for different courses!

 

[Descartes]

Wondering - what ~$80 amp are you suggesting here would be a good match with the LS50s?
Not trying to be snarky, you could actually save me 900$!

The KEF LS 50 have an 85db sensitivity and go down to 3ohms according to reviews so I don’t think an $80 amp is going to work!
You need plenty of power and more importantly current.

 

[alex-z]

Wondering - what ~$80 amp are you suggesting here would be a good match with the LS50s?
Not trying to be snarky, you could actually save me 900$!

Aiyima A07.

https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-A07-TPA3255-Amplifier-Digital/dp/B08CJZGT6H

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Review (Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AIYIMA A07 desktop amplifier based on TPA3255 class D amplifier chip. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The cost is US $72 on Amazon including prime shipping. And as of this shipping, it also included a 32 volt, 5...

www.audiosciencereview.com

To be clear, it isn't somehow state of the art. But it produces 50-70 watts of reasonably clean power and can drive 4 Ohm loads. The LS50 Meta has a minimum impedance of 3.7 Ohm so it most certainly counts.

I am sure some people with a poor understanding of electronics will say it is a bad match, that you need more power for "dynamics" or something. But the reality of the situation is that if you give a pair of LS50 Meta more than 50 watts, they will be producing far more distortion than the amplifier itself. Amir clearly shows in the LS50 Meta review that distortion goes past 1% below 500Hz at 96dB, which is a mere 16 watts.

It makes infinitely more sense to invest that $900 into acoustic treatment, a subwoofer, or some DSP capability.