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LS50 meta's plus sub vs More expensive speakers

phoenixdogfan

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Speaking from experience as I have a pair of LS50's (original) and two Rythmik L12 subs:
Adding a sub to my speakers (and low end performance of the Meta's is the same) makes a big difference. Visible cone excursions disappear with a crossover as low as 90 hz. At one time I had a single Martin Logan sub. I had bass localization problems, possibly from crossing over above 80 hz or some weird room problem. Two subs are much better than one. Beyond that this discussion goes off in a lot of directions about subs in general.

The MiniDSP 2x4 HD is a nice solution as it is the only inexpensive device out there which will do both the high pass and delay on the mains. Plus, it gives system wide eq for sources other than a computer or streamer. SINAD is around 90, not 99 as someone mentioned. This kind of device also has a limited number of taps per filter. Some perfectionists will stick their nose up at this device. Why should I care since I'm using a Crown XLS 1502 with a SINAD of 78. How good is good enough the rest of you can discuss on your own time.

The Crown has a built in 4th order adjustable high pas filter, and some other DSP tricks. It provides just over 1 ms of delay for the mains. The L12's subs have low latency so positioned right next to the mains the timing is good. SVS subs have considerably more latency from their DSP making delay of the mains a more difficult task.

Someone mentioned using a 200 hz crossover. That's ok if you have a sub designed for it like the dual 8" sub Rythmik makes. Typical 12" subs just aren't fast enough to go past 120 hz. Also, a high crossover point means running the subs stereo and getting everything right just gets harder. I tried it going as high as 175 hz. Around 100 works better.

I haven't heard the Metas, but my takeaway from some video reviews is there isn't much difference between a Meta and originals which have been eq'ed to sound like a Meta.

To answer the OP's question, I would prefer a system which can cut it without subs. Integration isn't as easy as some think and there are a lot more things to go wrong. People make a big deal about flat to 20 hz, but other than a pipe organ instruments don't go lower than 28 hz. For whatever reason, when I hear live music bass is somewhat attenuated. Then again, gut punch bass is fun...
miniDSP SHD is limited to 2048 filter taps per channel, the miniDSP 2x4 HD has only 1024 filter taps per channel. By contrast, the DePhonica software as up to 128,000 taps per channel and its freeware that runs on Windows.

I'm really liking this software, it's very easy to use, and it sounds very transparent to my ears. My initial measurements with Dirac Live seem to confirm it's not doing anything harmful to the signal. And yes, my system sounds great with it in the signal path. So much so, I don't see the need for a miniDSP SHD Studio to pair with my Octo 8 Pro.

https://dephonica.com/

Together with something like Equalizer APO, it seems like it can provide a completely free alternative to miniDSP. Just add multichannel DAC.

If anyone is looking for an electronic crossover to pair with LS 50s and sub(s), why not give it a try? It will set you back nothing but time.
 
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ernestcarl

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miniDSP 2x4 HD has only 1024 filter taps per channel

Not quite true. The one I have allows you to use up to 2036 for one channel. Of course, the limited total number of taps means you have much less leftover for the rest of the other channels.

Ideally 2048 or 4096 per channel is the lowest I’d prefer for these types of devices.

One can go bonkers and go higher… say, with a PC. Though the risk of someone inadvertently “overcorrecting” — causing “ringing” — increases.

I’ve done this before as well where I’ve flattened the phase and group delay way, way too much… you can hear a “whoop” sound with certain test tones e.g. kick drum test
 

Ron Texas

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There are several software crossovers. The one I hear about the most is Audiolense. Delphonica is free now as a preview version. Will it time out? Definitely, a good software crossover with a multichannel DAC is the high performance solution. The only drawback is it only works with computer sources.
 

aarons915

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Does distortion not matter for peak SPL? Even with EDM music I can measure 10+ dB higher peaks. Standard for movies is 20 dB of headroom.

I think it highly depends on your personal listening levels but I don't know the answer regarding distortion and what is audible or what matters. I posted a similar question below in another thread about loudness and posted my REW logger of a song a bit louder than I ever listen, I noted that the song doesn't seem to change much in volume and a 20db deviation doesn't seem to happen at all perceptually. Since distortion in the bass is already hard for humans to perceive, it's very likely that these fast peaks are even less audible. There isn't enough research on the audibility of distortion so I've mostly relied on my ears, if I can play at my loudest levels and the system sounds clean then there isn't much of a point in analyzing distortion levels but my above example was just showing that at those levels a 100Hz crossover keeps the LS50 to around 1% or less THD, so a radical crossover isn't needed like some claim.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...usic-how-loud-is-loud-video.22434/post-874943
 

phoenixdogfan

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There are several software crossovers. The one I hear about the most is Audiolense. Delphonica is free now as a preview version. Will it time out? Definitely, a good software crossover with a multichannel DAC is the high performance solution. The only drawback is it only works with computer sources.

If you look, it's been a preview version since 2016, don't think anyone's gonna do anything with regard to "timing it out". Nothing on the web site either regarding that either. Worst case, at some point someone asks for a fee (probably l.t. $100) and if there's an expiration feature, you either pay up or move on.

As of right now, I can tell everyone, it takes around two minutes to set up, has phase compensation, the ability to have multiple presets that can be moved in and out, an Asio sink driver on input, a wdm driver if you don't want to use the Asio, IIR and Fir filters, as many taps as anyone could possibly need, 2 X 8 crossover capability (so it could work as 4 way). LR, Butterworth. Chebychev, and Bessel filters, and 64 bit floating point precision.

If anyone streams exclusively from the PC, this seems like the real deal.

Edit: I did a little research on the crossover, and there's a thread on DIY Audio. It was done by a guy named Max in Russia (I think, b/c the site has the Russian flag to indicate the Russian language version of the website).

Anyway, he apparently abandoned the project late 2016-early 2017 because he couldn't get Microsoft to certify the newest version of the WDM driver. Whether the old version is included, I don't know since I just use JRiver (with its signed WDM driver) as my default device for everything, and since JRiver supports Asio output, I send everything going to the Dephonica over its Asio Sink driver.

There are of course other ways to output programs that don't support Asio to Dephonica, like Voicemeter, and/or VB Audio Cable in connection with Asio4all.

In any case, it looks like once Dephonica is downloaded, it yours to use forever.

Final postscript: I checked and if it has a WDM driver it doesn't show up on my computer's soundcard, or any program I'm running which allows direct input to something other than the sound card. So no WDM driver, and you'd have to use an Asio workaround.
 
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abdo123

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miniDSP SHD is limited to 2048 filter taps per channel, the miniDSP 2x4 HD has only 1024 filter taps per channel. By contrast, the DePhonica software as up to 128,000 taps per channel and its freeware that runs on Windows.

I'm really liking this software, it's very easy to use, and it sounds very transparent to my ears. My initial measurements with Dirac Live seem to confirm it's not doing anything harmful to the signal. And yes, my system sounds great with it in the signal path. So much so, I don't see the need for a miniDSP SHD Studio to pair with my Octo 8 Pro.

https://dephonica.com/

Together with something like Equalizer APO, it seems like it can provide a completely free alternative to miniDSP. Just add multichannel DAC.

If anyone is looking for an electronic crossover to pair with LS 50s and sub(s), why not give it a try? It will set you back nothing but time.

the MiniDSP SHD has no FIR capabilities at all, it’s all reserved for Dirac.
 
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Eternals

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Thank you everyone for the incredible detail of information. My tech-shy nature means that a miniDSP is unlikely for me.
Before I commit to the ls50 meta's and an SBS sub, are there any reccomended single box speakers that can give the ls50 meta magic (detail, separation, mids, clarity) with the bass extensions? The KEF R3's gave additional lower levels, but lost some of the mid / high magic, and didn't extend bass as much as my current TDL RTL3's. (Deep breath) what would need to spend for that simplicity and which speakers need to be on my listening shortlist? My amp has no option for HPF but can run a sub.
 
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abdo123

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Thank you everyone for the incredible detail of information. My tech-shy nature means that a miniDSP is unlikely for me.
Before I commit to the ls50 meta's and an SBS sub, are there any reccomended single box speakers that can give the ls50 meta magic (detail, separation, mids, clarity) with the bass extensions? The KEF R3's gave additional lower levels, but lost some of the mid / high magic, and didn't extend bass as much as my current TDL RTL3's. (Deep breath) what would need to spend for that simplicity and which speakers need to be on my listening shortlist? My amp has no option for HPF but can run a sub.

probably a KEF blade 1 or blade 2.
 

abdo123

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@abdo123 I've just checked prices for the Blades. It's fair to say that this gives a very clear comparison for the cost and value of the LS50 meta's. Thank you.

Sorry about it, but that's the cheapest real 'Full Range' Speaker KEF makes. the blade would be the only fair comparision to a LS50 Meta + a very good subwoofer.

I always wanted KEF to make bigger coaxials, something similar to Genelecs, but that doesn't seem to fit with their clientele perhaps.
 

Ultrasonic

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@abdo123 I've just checked prices for the Blades. It's fair to say that this gives a very clear comparison for the cost and value of the LS50 meta's. Thank you.

One key advantage of going down the subwoofer route is that it's possible to achieve a full-range sound for much less that trying to do it with large speakers.
 
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Eternals

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Sorry about it, but that's the cheapest real 'Full Range' Speaker KEF makes. the blade would be the only fair comparision to a LS50 Meta + a very good subwoofer.

I always wanted KEF to make bigger coaxials, something similar to Genelecs, but that doesn't seem to fit with their clientele perhaps.
No apologies required, it was quite the eye opener. I simply hadn't appreciated the size of the next step.
 

abdo123

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No apologies required, it was quite the eye opener. I simply hadn't appreciated the size of the next step.

allow me to suggest something a bit different, the KEF KC62 subwoofer has both highpass filters for speakers and lowpass filter for the subwoofer itself. it would substitute a MiniDSP. Have you considered that option?
 

KMO

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allow me to suggest something a bit different, the KEF KC62 subwoofer has both highpass filters for speakers and lowpass filter for the subwoofer itself. it would substitute a MiniDSP. Have you considered that option?

Talked about it above - the Hegel amp doesn't have the necessary connections to put that in circuit - same problem as MiniDSP.

But it could be a future-proofing option? If he had that, then if he got a power amplifier later, it would slot in nicely...
 

KMO

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@abdo123 I've just checked prices for the Blades. It's fair to say that this gives a very clear comparison for the cost and value of the LS50 meta's. Thank you.

To be fair, there are other differences beyond the "full range". The Uni-Q in the Blade is a step up in budget and hence engineering, despite looking superficially similar from the front, being the same size and all. They look totally different from the back.

But conceptually, yes, the Blade and the LS50 are conceptually close. They're both "go nuts" standalone concepts in terms of design, but the LS50 was limited both by 2-way bookshelf form factor and budget. So it's not quite a "mini blade", exactly.

There is indeed a gap in KEFs range for something in-between the with the same sort of single-apparent-source "concept" vibe. More capable than LS50, but still affordable.

They're very conscious that they have to have ranges for people wanting "conventional" looking speakers, so they can't go "all Blade", but I think the Blade/LS50 fans are a little under-served at the minute.
 
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Eternals

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Talked about it above - the Hegel amp doesn't have the necessary connections to put that in circuit - same problem as MiniDSP.

But it could be a future-proofing option? If he had that, then if he got a power amplifier later, it would slot in nicely...
@abdo123 @KMO
I love the idea. I suspect that there is a future where I consider selling the Hegel and replacing with pre and power amp vs just buying a high quality power amp connected to the Hegel. That is however financially unlikely in the next 18-24 months. Either scenario still leaves the KC62 as a potential option I think.
 

abdo123

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@abdo123 @KMO
I love the idea. I suspect that there is a future where I consider selling the Hegel and replacing with pre and power amp vs just buying a high quality power amp connected to the Hegel. That is however financially unlikely in the next 18-24 months. Either scenario still leaves the KC62 as a potential option I think.

Perhaps you can contact KEF and ask them if you could use the high-pass of the KC62 with the LS50 WIreless II? this way no amplifier is necessary anymore and you don't compromise on streaming at all.
 

abdo123

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@Eternals

it seems the LS50 Wireless II has a built in highpass via the application, seems like an end game build to me for a small to medium rooms.

1630840010725.png
 

KMO

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Perhaps you can contact KEF and ask them if you could use the high-pass of the KC62 with the LS50 WIreless II? this way no amplifier is necessary anymore and you don't compromise on streaming at all.

The LS50 Wireless II would do the high-pass + low-pass itself, leaving the option of any sub.

(It has handy presets for the KC62, but the KC62 wouldn't offer you enhanced functionality compared to any other sub, given that the LS50 would do all the crossover work.)

Ends up being a bit of a system mismatch - a sudden jump from passive to active, relegating the Hegel to just being a source/frontend, but it's a possibility, I guess.
 
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Eternals

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@abdo123 @KMO I wish that I was starting from scratch. I do still have my RPi running LMS and the Topping E30 DAC that I'd been using prior to the recent purchase of the Hegel. I can't afford the cost (or domestic situation) right now for letting the Hegel go unless I can get close enough to the purchase price. Certainly something to explore. If not a workable plan now, maybe a future step.
 
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