LS50 meta's plus sub vs More expensive speakers

[phoenixdogfan]

The KEF LS 50 have an 85db sensitivity and go down to 3ohms according to reviews so I don’t think an $80 amp is going to work!
You need plenty of power and more importantly current.

You could go on Ebay and try to find something like an old Hafler DH200 for not much more than $100-200. If it's in good shape it would work well. Has enough power and it holds up well to just about any modern class AB design. That's if you're trying to save money. I don't know why you couldn't try a Hypex NC252MP kit if you were willing to go to $400-500. It's easy, cheap, there's an instruction video on the internet, and it's 250 wpc class D. And, no, it won't sound strident.

An Inexpensive Hi-Fi Class-D Stereo Amp for the 2020's: Hypex nCore NC252MP (DIY Assembly)

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[thewas]

Aiyima A07.

https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-A07-TPA3255-Amplifier-Digital/dp/B08CJZGT6H

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Review (Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AIYIMA A07 desktop amplifier based on TPA3255 class D amplifier chip. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The cost is US $72 on Amazon including prime shipping. And as of this shipping, it also included a 32 volt, 5...

www.audiosciencereview.com

To be clear, it isn't somehow state of the art. But it produces 50-70 watts of reasonably clean power and can drive 4 Ohm loads. The LS50 Meta has a minimum impedance of 3.7 Ohm so it most certainly counts.

I am sure some people with a poor understanding of electronics will say it is a bad match, that you need more power for "dynamics" or something. But the reality of the situation is that if you give a pair of LS50 Meta more than 50 watts, they will be producing far more distortion than the amplifier itself. Amir clearly shows in the LS50 Meta review that distortion goes past 1% below 500Hz at 96dB, which is a mere 16 watts.

It makes infinitely more sense to invest that $900 into acoustic treatment, a subwoofer, or some DSP capability.

Well said, based on the good measurements of the A07 here I spontaneously got a A08 (as it has a bigger PSU and USB-DAC) as a temporary replacement of my big Yamaha AX-1050 (more than 2x300WRMS) which broke down till it is repaired, but to tell the truth it works really fine with both my pairs of original and Meta LS50s and sounds like no real audible drawback to my Focusrite/Yamaha combination.

 

[Tokyo_John]

I was working with a pair of LS50 Metas downstream of a Topping D90 and Hypex ncore nc252 amp, in a similar boat as the OP. I then bought a KC62 sub, and then a miniDSP SHD to replace the D90, and the results are simply amazing with Dirac Live. The entire cost of mp present setup (new), including everything downstream of the digital source, is just over $5k. I'm crossed over at 60 Hz, and using wide field Dirac room correction.

My alternative was to go with bigger 3-way speakers and a bit more muscle amp, which would probably have cost more and would not deliver the kind of pin point imaging I get from the LS50 Metas nor the sub-bass depth that the system is capable of delivering. Maybe it would go louder, but I never go above 90dB-SPL anyways. And then there is the added bonus of DSP room correction, which you really have to hear to believe (I do).

Anyways, KEF has hit a grand slam with the LS50 Meta+KC-62 combo. Highly recommended. If the crossover is at 60 Hz the sub is not localized and you don't need 2 subs. If you want to go with a higher crossover then you'll need 2 subs, but that adds significantly to the cost and I'm not sure the gains are worth the extra investment (and clutter).

 

[Eternals]

I was working with a pair of LS50 Metas downstream of a Topping D90 and Hypex ncore nc252 amp, in a similar boat as the OP. I then bought a KC62 sub, and then a miniDSP SHD to replace the D90, and the results are simply amazing with Dirac Live. The entire cost of mp present setup (new), including everything downstream of the digital source, is just over $5k. I'm crossed over at 60 Hz, and using wide field Dirac room correction.

My alternative was to go with bigger 3-way speakers and a bit more muscle amp, which would probably have cost more and would not deliver the kind of pin point imaging I get from the LS50 Metas nor the sub-bass depth that the system is capable of delivering. Maybe it would go louder, but I never go above 90dB-SPL anyways. And then there is the added bonus of DSP room correction, which you really have to hear to believe (I do).

Anyways, KEF has hit a grand slam with the LS50 Meta+KC-62 combo. Highly recommended. If the crossover is at 60 Hz the sub is not localized and you don't need 2 subs. If you want to go with a higher crossover then you'll need 2 subs, but that adds significantly to the cost and I'm not sure the gains are worth the extra investment (and clutter).

@Tokyo_John Your post is motivating. How did you rate the set up with sub, but before miniDSPand Dirac Live?. As a rough estimate, how much better were the LS50 meta's with the sub with crossover at 60hz, and then again with miniDSP? I a trying to get some perspective for your sense of the gain for the costs.

 

[alitomr1979]

My set up is the LS 50 metas with a single SVS SB2000, and my original LS 50s as surrounds for when I play movies. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz. This is fairly new set up as I just got the Octo Research DAC 8, and I'm using JRiver as my surround processor and I've yet to integrate Dirac Live, but plan to in the next few days.

I can tell you the Metas sound absolutely great with the single sub. I'm currently crossing over at 100 hz, and I played The Dark Knight soundtrack this afternoon. There's point on "Why So Serious?" where there's low sub 20 hz pulsations are played, and even with the single sub my windows literally rattled, so I don't know if I feel I need a second sub. Thing is, human hearing is quite insensitive to distortions below 100 hz. Such distortions almost have to be at levels greater than 100 percent before they become audible at all. Mostly, multi sub set ups are intended to provide even bass levels at different listening positions in a room, so multiple listeners can experience the bass levels the same way, rather than to minimize perceived bass distortions.

This is probably right, but after you remove or reduce considerably driver excursion by adding the subwoofers, quality subwoofers one must add, you start to notice that there was actually something, let's say, not as clean when the speakers were reproducing those sounds below 100hz where usually distortion spikes.

For those of you interested, you can achieve a reduction of the driver excursion without an actual crossover with EQ. Basically you send the preouts to the subs and use the subs crossover at your desired point. When you measure you will have to drastically cut your lower frequencies and that will result in a considerably smaller signal in the undesirable range being sent to the speakers.

This is what room correction software does when you indicate you dont have subs because they are connected to an external integrated amplifier that you use to power your mains. The best test is to run a bass heavy song with room correction settings on and off and just watch.

After getting some upgrades last week I decided to try going full band with my R3 and in my room they are unbearable. Crazy spikes and deeps everywhere. For music listening I EQ manually in Roon, and the Yamaha A2070 does a very fine job for movies.

 

[alitomr1979]

I need an ASR comparison to put the Kef KC l2 where it belongs

That's a lot of money for a modestly performing subwoofer. It is very small, true, but come on people!

Kef LS-50 Meta, a pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro or PB-1000 Pro. a way to control crossover frequency, slope and perform bass EQ? Say a miniDSP-2x4 HD in the system. Patience to learn how to measure, interpret and apply the measurements to the system... Heaven at around $5000 ... for many ..
Price listing of a system like that:

Kef LS-50 Meta $1600
miniDSP 2 x 4 HD with UMik-1 $350
Denon AVR-X3700 $1500
SVS SB-1000 (Pair) $1000
Lot of time to make this work including 1000 posts/queries to ASR .... $????? (kind of free-ish but ... )

A wonderful sounding system that will wipe the floor with many High End >$50,000 contraptions. Full range total package.
You can later add more speakers for, again a wonderful, full range Home Theater system...

The Meta are serious contenders...

Hey, this is very good advice except for the amplification. LAst week I spent a great amount of time, the most part of 5 days, playing with a lot of equipment and two pairs of metas and one pair of OG LS50, and I can tell you those gems of speakers (and your listening pleasure) deserve much better than that receiver.

Also, I have one SB1000 with the OG LS50 and after spending some time with the SB3000 and SB3000 micro I can tell you those for some reason integrate way way easier with both LS50 than the SB1000. Dont get me wrong, I love my SB1000, but since they are talking about KEF's tiny sub money, I think the SB3000 MICRO must be in the conversation. Amazing, amazing tiny musical subwoofer. Amazing.

 

[Ataraxia]

Hey, this is very good advice except for the amplification. LAst week I spent a great amount of time, the most part of 5 days, playing with a lot of equipment and two pairs of metas and one pair of OG LS50, and I can tell you those gems of speakers (and your listening pleasure) deserve much better than that receiver.

Also, I have one SB1000 with the OG LS50 and after spending some time with the SB3000 and SB3000 micro I can tell you those for some reason integrate way way easier with both LS50 than the SB1000. Dont get me wrong, I love my SB1000, but since they are talking about KEF's tiny sub money, I think the SB3000 must be in the conversation. Amazing, amazing tiny musical subwoofer. Amazing.

What R3 amplification do you recommend? I've been running my R3's with a Yamaha A2080 for a few years, been very happy.

 

[alitomr1979]

What R3 amplification do you recommend? I've been running my R3's with a Yamaha A2080 for a few years, been very happy.

Oh man. You are happy, but the bug is real...

Check out this post and the few following in the thread: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-meta-vs-kef-r3.27233/post-991785

I am currently using Peachtree Nova Amp500 with SMSL M400 DAC using the cambridge CXA81 as preamp while they deliver the Topping PRE90 preamp. This amplifier is beyond amazing. The Cambridge is also great. Not as much though. I wanted something at least at the level of the CXA81 because I have the R3 in my main listening room in a tiny home theater, and the CXA81 not having home theater bypass was inconvenient. Also, I needed the CXA81 for the LS50s. A better match for me. This is considerably superior to the CXA81.

 

[Chromatischism]

What R3 amplification do you recommend? I've been running my R3's with a Yamaha A2080 for a few years, been very happy.

I just tell everyone to get one of these, easy: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...reo-amplifier-ncore-2x250w-4-ohm-p-14278.html

 

[Ataraxia]

Oh man. You are happy, but the bug is real...

Check out this post and the few following in the thread: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-meta-vs-kef-r3.27233/post-991785

I am currently using Peachtree Nova Amp500 with SMSL M400 DAC using the cambridge CXA81 as preamp while they deliver the Topping PRE90 preamp. This amplifier is beyond amazing. The Cambridge is also great. Not as much though. I wanted something at least at the level of the CXA81 because I have the R3 in my main listening room in a tiny home theater, and the CXA81 not having home theater bypass was inconvenient. Also, I needed the CXA81 for the LS50s. A better match for me. This is considerably superior to the CXA81.

Yes, I have the bug. Some analysis paralysis too. I definitely want to add Dirac with my next upgrade too.

 

[Tokyo_John]

@Tokyo_John Your post is motivating. How did you rate the set up with sub, but before miniDSPand Dirac Live?. As a rough estimate, how much better were the LS50 meta's with the sub with crossover at 60hz, and then again with miniDSP? I a trying to get some perspective for your sense of the gain for the costs.

Apologies for the delayed response but the difference using Dirac Live is huge for me. Like draining water-logged ears...yes, it's that big. With the SHD, there is a button on the remote that I can turn Dirac on/off and hear the difference right away. It is a cool feature, because it allows one to experience the change directly, and hear what exactly they are getting out of the system.

Of course, much depends on the room and placement, everyone will see different improvement. I think it is especially good for getting quality sound out of non-ideal placement and room (we don't always have a lot of freedom to arrange everything around acoustics)...this is where one would have the biggest gains. Perhaps ideally, with a perfect room and placement(s), one would hear no difference at all when turning Dirac on/off. But for those of us who don't have perfect rooms and placement possibilities...DSP is an essential tool.

Right now, I really don't think there is anything one can do to improve their system that will have a greater impact than DSP (especially in combination with tweaking room treatments and placements, if possible).

OK, so that is my assessment for the entire system sound, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz...what about subwoofer integration alone? Without considering other elements of room correction? Can REW do an equally good job? I haven't done a thorough comparison, but I could do this, in principle, since I could load REW-only correction onto one preset on the SHD, and then do the Dirac Live correction on another preset, and toggle back and forth while listening...maybe have my wife organize a blind test for me.

Hope that helps others. Anyways, it is a superb system. The stellar imaging from the LS50 Metas, a seamlessly integrated sub, and Dirac Live ... I am super-happy with this system, and I envision running it for a very very long time. I could one day buy bigger floor standers, but it won't help with imaging and any benefits would likely be subtle. The only reason to spend the $$$ for that would be to get louder volumes, but this is completely unnecessary for me personally.

 

[steve59]

Hi Eternals, I was in the market for an integrated in 2017 and I tried just about everything out there and I also ended up with a hegel. The H190 had just come out but I needed the power of the h360. Buyers remorse comes from buying something to save money, if the product makes the cut the next step is getting the best price for it, not settling for 2nd best. hegel and kef do well together, Krell is also very good with kef but even more expensive.

 

[Chromatischism]

Of course, much depends on the room and placement, everyone will see different improvement. I think it is especially good for getting quality sound out of non-ideal placement and room (we don't always have a lot of freedom to arrange everything around acoustics)...this is where one would have the biggest gains. Perhaps ideally, with a perfect room and placement(s), one would hear no difference at all when turning Dirac on/off. But for those of us who don't have perfect rooms and placement possibilities...DSP is an essential tool.

Agreed that with neutral speakers that disperse evenly, well-placed in a room, there would not be much for Audyssey/Dirac/etc to do on the top end. However, there will always be work to do in the bass region.

OK, so that is my assessment for the entire system sound, from 20 Hz to 20 kHz...what about subwoofer integration alone? Without considering other elements of room correction? Can REW do an equally good job? I haven't done a thorough comparison, but I could do this, in principle, since I could load REW-only correction onto one preset on the SHD, and then do the Dirac Live correction on another preset, and toggle back and forth while listening...maybe have my wife organize a blind test for me.

REW creates PEQ filters so while very good, it's not technically going to be as good as the kinds of filters Audyssey and Dirac create.

Testing to hear differences on a level playing field would be very hard – you will need to attempt to get the two curves as close to identical as possible. There are all kinds of variables that could throw a wrench into the works, not the least of which is the fact that you would be using two different measurement methods to input into the different systems.