LP Sound vs Digital

[amirm]

The battle of LP vs digital rages on. Unfortunately often there is no objective data to dig into to see what is going on there. I have heard very good LP sound. But I also routinely hear grittiness, distortion, etc. in LP that I do not hear in digital.

I thought I create this open thread into this debate hoping to uncover some new insight. To wit, I hold in my hands a number of LP rips form high-end systems (cost tens of thousands of dollars). While in some cases there is no digital version, in others there is.

Such is the case in this comparison of Vivaldi's Avi Avital. The LP rip that I have is in 44/16.1 and the digital comes courtesy of Prostudiomasters at 24/96 KHz: http://www.prostudiomasters.com/search?q=Vivaldi+Avi+Avital#quickview/album/3091

The LP rip unfortunately is recorded at much higher level than the digital. Crudely compensating, I find the vocals more open and pleasant in LP rip (although neither would win as reference quality in my book). The track in question is #17 which you can sample in the above link at Prostudiomasters.

I did a quick analysis of spectrum and this is what I get:

The increased level of LP in red is obvious.

I applied a 6 db amplification to the high-res file and this is the comparison now:

So it looks like some kind of dynamic compression was applied to low frequencies up to about 1 Khz in digital. I don't understand the motivation for this.

Anyone have any ideas here?

Here is the time domain waveform display. First for LP rip:

And then Digital high-res:

Notice that the peaks are higher in analog rip (by about 2 db). If I equalize them in time domain, then the frequency domain is off by the same amount.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[dallasjustice]

Interesting Amir.

Is it possible the apparent dynamic compression only looks that way when compared to vinyl rip? IOW, maybe the apparent increased LP DR results from inherently inaccurate LP playback.

I've never been a fan of LP's poor reproduction of low frequencies. It's indemnic to the playback format.

 

[amirm]

I don't have many answers yet. But do have a great tool which is a CD of various LP rips. So I will be doing more investigations.

 

[dallasjustice]

I have no idea either and maybe you are correct in what you see. It just feels really great to be able to say what I really think without fear of irrational attax.

 

[tomelex]

My experience is that LP has problems in the low bass with accuracy, and the very highest frequencies as well, however, what it does superbly due to the way the medium is recorded and played back, is present a more interesting sounding soundstage.

What I mean here is for example, with a digital recording as we receive them (not a needle drop which shows no difference to me so digital is not "bad') there is sort of pinpoint imaging, with vinyl the images touch each other, with digital there is space between the instruments,

its a bit hard to describe but think of it as say 5 instruments in the band, spread between the speakers, if you listen to digital, you can draw on your screen circles say 1 inch in diameter across the screen left to right, and there is plenty of space between them, now play a vinyl version of the same, you still have 5 circles, but they are all bigger around and their sides touch each other.

Amir, your shots above show more dynamic range in the vinyl as well, not just loudness. Dynamic range is lifeblood to music. the mechanical recording and playback process of vinyl adds some pleasant sounding or character to plain old stereo.

I am by the way happy in digital and vinyl worlds.

 

[March Audio]

I think the answer is very simple. We need to make an LP !

Unless we know the process end to end we can never be sure of what has happened to the original recording before it ended up on the LP or download.

So, find some amateur musicians, make a recording, cut an LP and compare to the original recording. Simple!

I think I know what the end result will be like.

Anyone know how much to to an LP cut?

EDIT
Found this with a quick search, no comment if its any good, but the price wasnt scary.

http://vinylcarvers.com/

 

[dallasjustice]

It would be easier and more accurate to make an LP with a logsweep. A digital logsweep can accurately measure distortion and FR linearity from 20hz-20khz. Then compare the original digital file with the log sweep off the LP. My experience is that one will experience a headache finding an accurate enough lathe down to 20hz to deliver such a test LP. I searched for one because I did a live TT to ADC to digital RIAA back to analog setup. I picked the Feickert adjust + LP, which supposedly has an accurate logsweep. I could never get my very excellent TT to play an accurate sweep down to 20hz. I believe the real problem is inherent to the medium itself. I think this project could result in much tail chasing. But I'd be interested to read about it since I won't be doing it.

I think the answer is very simple. We need to make an LP !

Unless we know the process end to end we can never be sure of what has happened to the original recording before it ended up on the LP or download.

So, find some amateur musicians, make a recording, cut an LP and compare to the original recording. Simple!

I think I know what the end result will be like.

Anyone know how much to to an LP cut?

EDIT
Found this with a quick search, no comment if its any good, but the price wasnt scary.

http://vinylcarvers.com/

 

[March Audio]

We can do both. Problem with just a log sweep is it wont tell you how it sounds.

Yes there are variables here, but I think its an interesting exercise in seeing just how much cutting an LP changes the sound - and personally I have no doubt that it will.

For the price of the link above I am quite happy just to give it a go.

It would be easier and more accurate to make an LP with a logsweep. A digital logsweep can accurately measure distortion and FR linearity from 20hz-20khz. Then compare the original digital file with the log sweep off the LP. My experience is that one will experience a headache finding an accurate enough lathe down to 20hz to deliver such a test LP. I searched for one because I did a live TT to ADC to digital RIAA back to analog setup. I picked the Feickert adjust + LP, which supposedly has an accurate logsweep. I could never get my very excellent TT to play an accurate sweep down to 20hz. I believe the real problem is inherent to the medium itself. I think this project could result in much tail chasing. But I'd be interested to read about it since I won't be doing it.

 

[tomelex]

here is some really good info on EQ and dynamics and loss of highs and lows with vinyl compared to a cd, it shows what he does to take care of a large part of the differences between the two, note, that it is not the best comparison because the mastering is different in the vinyl and cd, but the end result you can hear

 

[tomelex]

here is some more about records, and a key point is the compromise of the 45 degree stereo factor, and the resultant mixing of the two channels because the two channels are tied together by a physical thing called a stylus tip that has to "follow" two separate things at the same time, thus the same thing happens when the cutter is cutting the two tracks, its a monoing across the board, another effect.

 

[March Audio]

This is all pretty much what I thought I already knew. Vinyl may sound nice to many, but hifi it ain't.

 

[amirm]

Let me be a bit more clear. I actually want to incorporate the differences in mastering in the analysis, not just physical format to physical format.

Right now, in many instances I find LP to have an annoying signature and many distortions. I want to understand why others do not hear these and have such strong preference for LP. I hope to create some sample clips for us to listen to since I have these rips.

 

[March Audio]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about vinyl.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you don't have identical masters you are really spitting into the wind. Not all that much can come from it.

I do know comparing reel tape, CD and LP that LP was always the odd man out. Sometimes CD and reel were very close within limits of tape other times just close. LP was never close to the other two.

 

[March Audio]

This was the point I was making, but like Amir I do wonder why others don't hear the distortions of LP that I hear....or possibly why I find them so grating and yet others find them inoffensive.

 

[Thomas savage]

I have no idea either and maybe you are correct in what you see. It just feels really great to be able to say what I really think without fear of irrational attax.

The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to a good analogue reproduction. oh and 'i love vinyl because its better, everyone knows it, you guys just cant afford SOTA TT. so stop comparing crap incomplete digital with pure vinyl playback that leaves nothing out.'

oh and michael all those jeans that dont fit you anymore, what a waste you should be ashamed of yourself and feast on BBq ribs until they fit again else your killing the planet...

that's my best stab at being irrational and attacking you all... (must try harder)

i have rarely\never got on with vinyl, not heard 100k systems though. too many artifacts that should not be there. just seems to lack bass impact and clean punctuation. the 'artifacts 'are distracting for me as well. maybe it is a case of what you get used to? i dont have a problem when i listen to live unamplified music in my local jazz pub, it sounds great. the only artifact that's irritating is my empty cider glass and the bar is always busy..that's why i double up

 

[Purité Audio]

I believe vinyl cutting is an art in itself, you have to be careful not to burn out the cutter head which would be incredibly expensive, and then there are the limitations of the medium and the reversal EQ implemented by the RIAA.
I don't think the masterings can be exactly the same ?
Keith.

 

[March Audio]

Yes, obviously the track has to be equalised and limited for the cut. It's more of a case of starting from the same recording for comparison.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yes, so my question is does the very method of transfer impose its own differences , even if you start with the very same mastering?
Keith.

 

[March Audio]

I think so. I'm just curious as to how much it changes and is it responsible for what people perceive as the more euphonic nature of LPs