Low-cost center channel output??

[Xulonn]

I will likely order the monaural ChiFi amp and an HDMI 7.1 to RCA Extractor/DAC tomorrow and have them drop shipped to Amir for testing.

HDMI DACs are a rare breed, and Amir has already tested the only decent one I know of - the now sold out and discontinued HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC from Essence, a Florida company. The good news is that the $699 unit with only L/R RCA outputs has been replaced by a 7.1 that has RCA out for all 8-channels, and sells for a much lower price or $299.

Still, for my application and soon to be strained audio budget, and my need for only 3-channel L/C/R RCA out for video, I didn't want to spend $299. So I will stick with my original plan of using the $64 unit in the picture in my above post. That unit appears to be offered by many internet audio vendors around the world - same basic case design with a couple of variants of feature and port configuration.

Edit: Although this unit might have worked for me, I wanted something to replace my Topping DX7s DAC/Headphone Amp for two-channel music listening and use XLR interconnects. I was able to afford a full-on high quality AVP - the $900 IOTAVX 4K 7.1 unit, which also has room correction capability. That turned out to be a good choice, and works perfectly for me.

 

[Doodski]

I will likely order the monaural ChiFi amp and an HDMI 7.1 to RCA Extractor/DAC tomorrow and have them drop shipped to Amir for testing.

HDMI DACs are a rare breed, and Amir has already tested the only decent one I know of - the now sold out and discontinued HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC from Essence, a Florida company. The good news is that the $699 unit with only L/R RCA outputs has been replaced by a 7.1 that has RCAA out for all 8-channels, and sells for a much lower price or $299.
View attachment 57098

Still, for my application and soon to be strained audio budget, and my need for only 3-channel L/C/R RCA out for video, I didn't want to spend $299. So I will stick with my original plan of using the $64 unit in the picture in my above post. That unit appears to be offered by many internet audio vendors around the world - same basic case design with a couple of variants of feature and port configuration.

Keep this up and soon you'll be running 8 speakers and several Canadian amplifiers too.

 

[Xulonn]

Keep this up and soon you'll be running 8 speakers and several Canadian amplifiers too.

LOL Dood! I actually do have a Canadian/Chinese Musical Paradise EL34/KT77 single-ended tube amp I bought for sentimental reasons. However, tube amps are not easy to switch in and out with another amp (in my case, a Classé 70 SS amp) between source and speakers because you can fry them if you accidentally switch them out without a speaker load resistor when no speaker is attached.

 

[Doodski]

However, tube amps are not easy to switch in and out with another amp (in my case, a Classé 70 SS amp) between source and speakers because you can fry them if you accidentally switch them out without a speaker load resistor when no speaker is attached.

I never knew that. I've owned one antique tube amp a Sherwood and it was more of a novelty and a aesthetic mate for my J.A. Michell hydraulic transcription turntable for a antique statement rack. Good information to keep in mind so I don't fry a tube amp in the future if I ever deal with one.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I will likely order the monaural ChiFi amp and an HDMI 7.1 to RCA Extractor/DAC tomorrow and have them drop shipped to Amir for testing.

HDMI DACs are a rare breed, and Amir has already tested the only decent one I know of - the now sold out and discontinued HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC from Essence, a Florida company. The good news is that the $699 unit with only L/R RCA outputs has been replaced by a 7.1 that has RCAA out for all 8-channels, and sells for a much lower price or $299.
View attachment 57098

My comments on it here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-98-trinnov-altitude-32-essence-evolve-ii-4k-page-2

 

[Blumlein 88]

LOL Dood! I actually do have a Canadian/Chinese Musical Paradise EL34/KT77 single-ended tube amp I bought for sentimental reasons. However, tube amps are not easy to switch in and out with another amp (in my case, a Classé 70 SS amp) between source and speakers because you can fry them if you accidentally switch them out without a speaker load resistor when no speaker is attached.


View attachment 57102

You can put a 220 ohm or so resistor across the output of most tube amps and it prevents any problems with speakers disconnected. Just FYI if you need to do such a thing at some point.

 

[Xulonn]

My comments on it here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-98-trinnov-altitude-32-essence-evolve-ii-4k-page-2

Thanks Kal - I read your mini-review at Stereophile, and you've confirmed my guess - the Essence Evolve II HDMI Multichannel DAC is good product from an American company with an actual identity. My only other option is to choose from the morass of copies, clones, and multi-labeled generic boxes that dominates the global internet sales market of the world of cheap Chinese audio. We are blessed with a great range - both in quality and in price - of stereo DACs to choose from, but the same is not true not for multichannel DACs.

Being very budget-limited and already in over my head, I plan test that morass of a market (yet again), and send to @amirm for testing a $64 ChiFi HDMI DAC plus a similarly-priced monaural amplifier that uses the TPA3255D2 chip. I hope that someone else can send him an Essence HDMI MC DAC for testing and comparison. If the ChiFi DAC is decent, I will be happy. Otherwise I willl have little choice except to save my money for the Essence unit.

For my center channel project, the speaker is by far the biggest commitment - and the most important component. It will also be expensive to forward to Panama - $700 delivered if I can buy it on sale, and that is the plan currently on my radar for when the coronavirus subsides and restrictions are lifted.

(If I had a bigger budget, the ideal solution would likely be the Essence HDMI DAC and a Nord Mp NC252 3-channel, 250wpc Hypex amp - but that would cost a total of about $1,000 assuming that I could then sell my Classé Model Seventy 70wpc stereo amp for $400.)

 

[Xulonn]

Avrs in general (at least the amp sections) started regressing after HDMI came out. Low cost HDMI audio extractors solve that problem.

[Note: Cross-posted as excerpts from the Meridian G68ADV thread.]

...No way am I going to invest in a full 5.1 system with separate electronics and speakers - not even a used AVR.

And therein lies the problem. The [Meridian] discussion included the difficulties of implementing multichannel sound without buying a separate AVR or AV Preamp, and no one does 3.1. Even the original 5.1 surround system is becoming less common. Simply extracting and doing a simple DA conversion for a video-only center channel signal from HDMI to improve dialog clarity is not easy for a 2-channel audiophile.

After hours of searching the internet, I found only one promising multi-channel HDMI Audio Extractor/DAC, the Evolve II-4K HDMI v2.0 / Multi-Channel DAC. It is a $299 unit from Essence Audio in Florida - a real company with real people to contact. The Evolve looks simple, is reasonably priced, and has no frills. It was the only one I found from a known company that appears to be a reseller, but not a re-labeler of generic cheap-electronics.

View attachment 57322

Amir tested another Essence HDMI DAC, the $699 Essence HDACC II-4K HDMI/USB DAC, and found it to be a decent produts. Like many of its cheaper current generic ChiFi counterparts, the HDACC II-4K only extracted and converted the front L/R channels from HDMI. The architecture seems to be more of a conventional 2-channel dac with a limited 2-channel HDMI signal extractor added.

View attachment 57325

For el-cheapo multichannel HDMI extraction, there are a couple of similar appearing "families" of multi-channel DACs with slight variations in configuration and labeling appearing at a multitude of internet seller sites. The one below is the one I chose to purchase and have drop-shipped to @amirm for testing. If it is decent, I will use it, switching to it for L/R/C to feed 3-channel audio for video viewing, while leaving the surround channels unconnected. If it doesn't perform decently in testing, I will save my money and get the Essence unit - and I hope another ASR member will buy the Essence Evolve II unit and send it to @amirm for testing.

View attachment 57330

 

[laudio]

Used avrs can go for cheap tho.... I run a similar extracter but optical out to an older B&K avr that is built like a power amp. Works well.

 

[mhardy6647]

I will likely order the monaural ChiFi amp and an HDMI 7.1 to RCA Extractor/DAC tomorrow and have them drop shipped to Amir for testing.

HDMI DACs are a rare breed, and Amir has already tested the only decent one I know of - the now sold out and discontinued HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC from Essence, a Florida company. The good news is that the $699 unit with only L/R RCA outputs has been replaced by a 7.1 that has RCAA out for all 8-channels, and sells for a much lower price or $299.
View attachment 57098

Still, for my application and soon to be strained audio budget, and my need for only 3-channel L/C/R RCA out for video, I didn't want to spend $299. So I will stick with my original plan of using the $64 unit in the picture in my above post. That unit appears to be offered by many internet audio vendors around the world - same basic case design with a couple of variants of feature and port configuration.

Florida Company -- that's nothing like "Florida Man", right?

 

[infinitesymphony]

@Xulonn

It sounds like you're pretty far down the hardware extractor path, but because your source is a desktop computer and files, I would strongly consider trying to find a software solution because it will be more platform-agnostic in the future. I believe downmixing with AC3Filter may accomplish the bulk of the work you need to do:

This can be loaded as a filter in programs like MPC-HC. So, let's say this method works and now you have a discrete 3.1 downmix in the box.

I would choose the ASUS Xonar U7 MKII USB interface for discrete multichannel D/A and analog output. You will still need the mono power amp for the center speaker's discrete channel.

 

[Xulonn]

It sounds like you're pretty far down the hardware extractor path, but because your source is a desktop computer and files, I would strongly consider trying to find a software solution because it will be more platform-agnostic in the future.

Excellent suggestion, but unfortunately, my older NUC HTPC does not boot to an all-purpose OS, rather, it boots directly to one of two dedicated, Linux-based applications - LibreElec or Daphile.

Although the available selection of HDMI to multichannel RCA output DACs out there is limited, as we have learned here at ASR, decent DACs with SINAD below audibility are practically a commodity item these days. We will see how my choice checks out under @amirm 's scrutiny. Although my plans seem to change daily, as it stands at the moment, I plan to order that HDMI DAC tomorrow and have it drop-shipped to Amir for testing. Following suggestions by some of our resident technical experts, my implementation will include a Nobsound / Little Bear line-level switch box (tested and recommended by Amir that will switch the L/R channels from my Topping 2-channel "music DAC" to the HDMI DAC for watching video.

If I follow my current path without changing my mind yet again, next week I will order the next component of the upgrade - an Audiophonics MP252 Hypex monoblock amplifier (pic below) which has both RCA/XLR inputs. And finally, for this upgrade stage, I will wait for a deal on the Elac Debut Reference DCR52 center channel speaker. The resulting "patched in" center-channel should work O.K. with my L/R Paradigm Atom monitors for movies for now. The 10-year old Atom monitors are highly-rated neutral Canadian speakers, and should blend in fairly well with the Elacs.

Later, I can buy a pair of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speakers to replace the Atoms, keeping my Classé Model 70 stereo amplifier - or selling it and "upgrading it to Hypex amps. For changing between XLR and RCA inputs, my old 1990's Classé amplifier uses switches on the mainboard inside the case, but the modern Audiophonnics design has external switching. If the two inputs are buffered separately, one might be able to switch from XLR to RCA inputs without needing a separate discrete external switch box.

I spent most of today re-reading the Elac DBR-62 thread here at ASR plus lots of other reviews, and the Elac L/C/R trio appears to be a bargain for a truly excellent set of speakers. The larger, heavier, and more expensive Wharfedale Evo 4.2 + 4.c trio that I was considering would cost me at least $1K more when I include forwarding from Miami to Panama, would overwhelm my room with their size, and likely not sound much better, even though they are three-way speakers. I am not convinced that 3-ways are better then 2-ways, or that coaxials are better either. All of the evidence supporting claims of significant superiority of those two loudspeaker design options (coax and 3-way) seems to be anecdotal and subjective, and without confirmation via objective, double-blind listening tests.

 

[Doodski]

Elac Debut Reference DCR52 center channel speaker.

Great looking speakers I think in either black or white.

 

[infinitesymphony]

At some point hopefully we'll come across a HDMI pre/pro with decent DAC performance and then you'll be able to pass the discrete channels to whatever power amps you want.

I'm holding out for a <$1K receiver with good DAC, DSP, and power amp performance. Still dreaming at the moment considering even the megabucks receivers are underperforming.

 

[Mnyb]

This will work fine . A possible issue is with older tv series and movies that does not have 5.1 audio tracks , just two 2ch ? Ie no discrete center channel, an AVR would apply Dolby prologic or similar on such material and give you a center .
Can Kodi do such things , I’m unfamiliar with it’s features.

 

[Xulonn]

This will work fine . A possible issue is with older tv series and movies that does not have 5.1 audio tracks , just two 2ch ? Ie no discrete center channel, an AVR would apply Dolby prologic or similar on such material and give you a center .
Can Kodi do such things , I’m unfamiliar with it’s features.

Since I'm only going to have 3.0 channels, I will use L/R/C and ignore the rest.

Kodi dropped up-mixing from stereo to 5.1 after v14.x, but just brought it back for v18.6 which was released about two weeks ago.

I will try the up-mixing feature and report on how it works when I've got my center channel up and running in a few weeks.

 

[Mnyb]

Sorry about the budget constraints an AVR or prepro would also downmix to the avaibel speakerlayout .

Since I'm only going to have 3.0 channels, I will use L/R/C and ignore the rest.

Kodi dropped up-mixing from stereo to 5.1 after v14.x, but just brought it back for v18.6 which was released about two weeks ago.

I will try the up-mixing feature and report on how it works when I've got my center channel up and running in a few weeks.

Sounds like you have a good case for upmixing if needed and also downmixing as you have 3.0 .
Looks like Kodi negates the need for an AVR these days if you are willing to do some setup and read up on how it works and such nerding around

 

[infinitesymphony]

Sorry about the budget constraints an AVR or prepro would also downmix to the avaibel speakerlayout .


Sounds like you have a good case for upmixing if needed and also downmixing as you have 3.0 .
Looks like Kodi negates the need for an AVR these days if you are willing to do some setup and read up on how it works and such nerding around

This is an interesting idea. Does Kodi do matrixing and channel level setting, i.e. if you tell it you have 4 speakers can you select which ones you have or will it default to 4.0 (quad)?

Kodi solved a different problem I had with getting lip sync right on a TV that needed a video delay (audio too late even with 0ms delay). While media players like MPC-HC had this feature for files, Kodi was my only solution for streaming content.

 

[Xulonn]

Here is a diagram of the simplest solution I found to use two DACs - my original idea. It uses a multichannel HDMI DAC for video/movies, and a "premium" stereo DAC for music. Amplifier(s) could be Audiophonics, Nord or similar Hypex Ncore amplifiers with externally switchable XLR and RCA inputs. I have verified with Audiophonics that their amp with switched dual SLR/RCA inputs can indeed be used as source. I have not yet checked with Nord.

Otherwise, amplifier(s) with single input type (XLR or RCA) would require a "2-in, 1-out" line-level switch-box and more cables. With the basic scheme in this diagram, there is no control over levels, balance, EQ, etc. on the video side. That is too limited for me, so I am looking at yet another option. I will report on that on Wednesday after this religious holiday weekend, and after I get further information from a couple of vendors. AVRs/AVPs have up to 100 connections on their back panel, and I want as few as possible.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I am considering the possibility of adding a center channel to enhance dialog intelligibility with video, but don't have a component with an AV processor - and will not be adding rear speakers which would be 6 inches behind my head in my really small room. Raspberry Pi's only handle 2-channel, so HiFiBerry and their competitors will not be offering a multichannel option. And I am not interested in replacing my HTPC with a cheap Android media box.

I can think of the two possibilities below. Comments on specific experience with 3.0 channel A/V would be especially appreciated.

My Topping DX7s DAC has balanced and RCA out - apparently separately buffered, and o.k. to use both at the same time. The balanced out goes to my stereo power amp. Could I use a good RCA Y-cable designed for a subwoofer - feeding a mono amp with a volume control to drive a center channel? I am aware that there might be level-matching issues, but I would just set the center channel volume to my liking.

View attachment 56833

Another optiou would be to get a HDMI extractor/DAC like the one below ($56). Then I could pass the HDMI signal from my HTPC to my TV through the extractor, extract and convert the audio channels, and use only the center channel RCA out. If it is a half-way decent DAC, I wouldn't worry about sound quality, because I would still listen to music only in stereo. (I could even drop-ship it to Amir so he could test the L/R channels.)

View attachment 57096

I believe that the 5 ch extraction works only for AC3 type encoded Audio on HDMI, it will not work for true 5 channel PCM streams. Once you are on the AC3 route, you may be able to get that from your source PC as Toslink or Coax out and feed that into an old Ac3 DAC. I went that route for a while (until all the AmazonAppleWhatelse boxes had HDMI only).
400 $ might get you an Oppo 103 which will do all you want, and it plays discs too. The NanoAVR was mentioned already but is less versatile than the Oppo unless you want room correction. A Raspi with a tinkered I2S connector would be an ambitious project.
You could try an old analog Dolby surround decoder that would extract a centered voice and feed that into a center box whose volume could be changed separately from the other audio and makes it much better to hear. That was once the idea of Multichannel (plus some background surround rumble)