Loudspeakers recommandation - late evening listening sessions

[PappyBlue]

I'd like to get some advice from the community regarding speaker purchases. Unfortunately, I don't have a dedicated listening room; I live in an open-plan condo, and my stereo system is in a large open-concept living/dining/kitchen area. I mainly listen to music late in the evening (jazz trio, classical, baroque, classic rock) at low volumes. The soundproofing is excellent, but using a subwoofer isn't an option.

Currently, my speakers are Revel F208s, driven by a Rotel Michi X3 amplifier. I really like them, but after four years, I'm looking to try something new. Also, I feel they lack dynamism at low volumes. Since I often listen to vinyl records, I can't use digital loudness controls.

I've identified a few speakers and would appreciate your feedback on them.

Kef R11 Meta
MOFI Sourcepoint 888
Audio Gold 500 Monitor
Harbeth SHL5
???

Thank you for your help.

 

[EERecordist]

I suggest approaching this with calibration and equalization first, before replacing the speakers. Room EQ Wizard free software with a calibrated microphone on your existing computer is about $100. With that you can see a frequency response graph of your listening position.

There are DACs with EQ and a phono input. You may find some EQ presets on such a device will make your existing speakers, room, and vinyl material meet your preferences in sound.

It is probably a good idea to research the Fletcher-Munson Curves and load the free calibrated NIOSH sound level meter app, Apple device only. If you want to get deeper into digital, and your source is vinyl, you could experiment with an expander plugin. Because vinyl disc cutting had a relatively small signal to noise ratio, the master recordings are compressed before cutting the master disc, and rolled off on the low end to control groove spacing, and on the high end to avoid burning up the cutter head. An expander reverses the compressor, and EQ may recover more of the master recording.

 

[Chester]

You sound like you’ve made your mind up and I don’t like to recommend things that the OP has not asked for. However, given your situation, if you really are just after a more dynamic experience at low volumes, any of the RME AdI-2 Pro models are perfect for this scenario. Takes analog input, converts to digital and has a built in loudness feature for this very scenario. Other solutions are likely available if you wanted to go this route also.

If you’re already aware I apologise, I just didn’t want you to not know and find you have a similar problem with another pair of speakers.

 

[levimax]

Most of the effect is fletcher-munson which can be added electrically but there are some controversial (because it is not settled science) ideas that some drivers perform better at low volume. The below is based on some science but again not proven. If low volume listening is your priority I would at least take these ideas into consideration and audition some speakers and decide for yourself.

For mid/high: Compression drivers.

For woofers read up on different surround materials and geometry, I believe tri-fold cloth may be best for this but not sure. Here is a quote from a member @KSTR on the subject:

The real problem with "lazy" drivers is not a huge mass or a weak motor per se, it's the suspension which often has non-linear and generally unstable friction because it is mechanical friction in solids which has ugly stick-slip properties. The thick "fire hose" style rubber surround on many subwoofers is a typical specimen.

Nonlinear friction is the only mechanism which can cause "resolution" errors at very small signal/movement levels.

 

[Head_Unit]

I can't use digital loudness controls.

I would recommend you find a used Yamaha with the variable loudness feature and try that out. THAT's the way to do loudness. I don't know over generations if that is an analog or digital feature.
Oh, and MEASURE your frequency response! A friend's system sounded really thin, well it turned out his speakers were in a terrible spot and there was a -10 dB hole from 50-130 Hz.
And oh again, I think Buchardt still has some models with built-in loudness. Not sure how that would integrate with phono - you have an outboard phono pre, or it's all done in the Rotel?

 

[JohnnyNG]

I would recommend you find a used Yamaha with the variable loudness feature and try that out. THAT's the way to do loudness.

Agreed. OP already has SOTA speakers so a little compensation for the human ear's deficiencies with bass at low volumes may be all that's needed.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

...there are some controversial (because it is not settled science) ideas that some drivers perform better at low volume. The below is based on some science but again not proven. .

I don't know about drivers, but there are some forms of music that sound better at lower volumes.

For some, the lower the better.

 

[PappyBlue]

I would recommend you find a used Yamaha with the variable loudness feature and try that out. THAT's the way to do loudness. I don't know over generations if that is an analog or digital feature.
Oh, and MEASURE your frequency response! A friend's system sounded really thin, well it turned out his speakers were in a terrible spot and there was a -10 dB hole from 50-130 Hz.
And oh again, I think Buchardt still has some models with built-in loudness. Not sure how that would integrate with phono - you have an outboard phono pre, or it's all done in the Rotel?

I have an outboard phono.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Imo, since you already have good speakers, I concur that EQ/DSP/Loudness is more likely to get you where you want to be than speaker roulette.

Furthermore, no one can accurately say what those new speaker choices will sound like in your room at low volumes (perhaps no better). The safer approach is to measure and see what's currently happening with the LF in your room first (which won't cost much) and go from there.

 

[Keith_W]

Agreed. OP already has SOTA speakers so a little compensation for the human ear's deficiencies with bass at low volumes may be all that's needed.

How do you know? Have you ever seen measurements of his Revels at lower than the standard volume of 76dB?

That's one beef I have with the standard suite of measurements. I think 76dB is too high. Compression testing should start at 66dB or even 56dB. Loudspeakers are designed for different outputs. A small bookshelf speaker may be more linear when operated at a lower volume, but have terrible measurements at higher volumes. Many people have no need for loudspeakers that can go up to 96dB, or even 105dB.

 

[Jaxx1138]

I'd like to get some advice from the community regarding speaker purchases. Unfortunately, I don't have a dedicated listening room; I live in an open-plan condo, and my stereo system is in a large open-concept living/dining/kitchen area. I mainly listen to music late in the evening (jazz trio, classical, baroque, classic rock) at low volumes. The soundproofing is excellent, but using a subwoofer isn't an option.

Currently, my speakers are Revel F208s, driven by a Rotel Michi X3 amplifier. I really like them, but after four years, I'm looking to try something new. Also, I feel they lack dynamism at low volumes. Since I often listen to vinyl records, I can't use digital loudness controls.

I've identified a few speakers and would appreciate your feedback on them.

Kef R11 Meta
MOFI Sourcepoint 888
Audio Gold 500 Monitor
Harbeth SHL5
???

Thank you for your help.

I know exactly what you mean. The Revels require tons of power and need to be turned up before they come alive. The MOFI 888 is likely your best option especially with no subs. But they will not give you the level of detail that the Revels do but they will be much more dynamic and have better bass extension and dynamic capability, especially in the bass. The KEF R11 may work , but some people love these and some people hate them. They will be leaner than the MOFI 888's, but more detailed with a more precise soundstage. The Harbeth is really good but I have a bias for coincident loudspeakers for small rooms as they tend to be less sensitive to room location for a good image. I don't know enough about the Audio Gold. Good luck.

 

[xlb250]

I would personally go Sonos Five.

- Blends in with living room
- Line input for your vinyl
- Automatically compensates for loudness
- Good bass extension at low volumes
- Room correction software for smooth bass
- Built-in EQ to adjust to taste

Have an Arc in my living room and no desire to upgrade it. Just blends in and works.

If you just have an upgrade itch, try used. You can rotate lots of components for minimal spend and hear all the differences the voicing etc make on the sound.

 

[Daverz]

I'd like to get some advice from the community regarding speaker purchases. Unfortunately, I don't have a dedicated listening room; I live in an open-plan condo, and my stereo system is in a large open-concept living/dining/kitchen area. I mainly listen to music late in the evening (jazz trio, classical, baroque, classic rock) at low volumes. The soundproofing is excellent, but using a subwoofer isn't an option.

Currently, my speakers are Revel F208s, driven by a Rotel Michi X3 amplifier. I really like them, but after four years, I'm looking to try something new. Also, I feel they lack dynamism at low volumes. Since I often listen to vinyl records, I can't use digital loudness controls.

Do you have tone controls on the amp?

I agree with the other recommendations to experiment more with speaker placement and EQ. Also consider sitting closer to the speakers (e.g. 6 to 7 feet), at least in the evening, to get a more direct sound. You can experiment with EQ using computer playback at first, and if that works out you can consider a DSP device with analog inputs like a Wiim or miniDSP.

 

[JohnnyNG]

How do you know?

I don't know for sure for that particular speaker, hence "may be".

 

[DSJR]

Current Harbeth SHL5+ and especially the XD/XD2 models, are now pretty neutral and don't need shedloads of power to come alive. The company is very well aware of the need for many of their potential and actual owners to play at lowish volume levels, so won't ever sound thin toned or bass-lacking at late-night volume levels. They do look vintage these days, but the performance isn't and hasn't been for quite some time now.

The MoFi models interest me hugely I have to say, but I haven't heard or seen them in the flesh I'm afraid, so can't comment otherwise.

---

On a tangent here - what's the vinyl player?

Might a pickup change address the tonal balance for low level listening? For example, one of the better Sumiko MM types over an AT VMX design, or maybe one of the better Ortofon 2M models (I'm a huge fan of the 2M Bronze) as an example (if a Technics style deck with 'SME type headshell, one of the Ortofon Concorde Music bronze or Black models maybe)...

 

[PappyBlue]

Do you have tone controls on the amp?

I agree with the other recommendations to experiment more with speaker placement and EQ. Also consider sitting closer to the speakers (e.g. 6 to 7 feet), at least in the evening, to get a more direct sound. You can experiment with EQ using computer playback at first, and if that works out you can consider a DSP device with analog inputs like a Wiim or miniDSP.

I tried tone control on the Michi. Not so great...

 

[PappyBlue]

Current Harbeth SHL5+ and especially the XD/XD2 models, are now pretty neutral and don't need shedloads of power to come alive. The company is very well aware of the need for many of their potential and actual owners to play at lowish volume levels, so won't ever sound thin toned or bass-lacking at late-night volume levels. They do look vintage these days, but the performance isn't and hasn't been for quite some time now.

The MoFi models interest me hugely I have to say, but I haven't heard or seen them in the flesh I'm afraid, so can't comment otherwise.

---

On a tangent here - what's the vinyl player?

Might a pickup change address the tonal balance for low level listening? For example, one of the better Sumiko MM types over an AT VMX design, or maybe one of the better Ortofon 2M models (I'm a huge fan of the 2M Bronze) as an example (if a Technics style deck with 'SME type headshell, one of the Ortofon Concorde Music bronze or Black models maybe)...

Technics SL1210GR with AT Vm540ml and Nagaoka MP200. I was curious about the Concorde Music bronze. I might give it a try.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I tried tone control on the Michi. Not so great...

You have an outboard phono preamp, correct? If so, run those outputs into the analog input of a WiiM unit where you would have access to 10-band PEQ (more specifically LF/HF shelf filters). That could be done for less than $100 so not much to lose if I'm not mistaken.

 

[DSJR]

Technics SL1210GR with AT Vm540ml and Nagaoka MP200. I was curious about the Concorde Music bronze. I might give it a try.

There's a firm called RigB (I think I have my capitals right) that offers metal mounts for your VM540 which should turn it into pretty much a 740. The 740 as tested by Lowbeats.de (you'd need to translate), has a slightly gentler tone subjectively despite the stylus and innards being the same as the 540. The upper AT models as a breed, do seem to put the highs over low bass and, being more 'digitally' inclined these days, I tend to prefer it. Unlike the Goldring 10** series, which can sound really spiteful up top if excessively loaded with capacitance, the ATs seem to gently sparkle more in my experience.

Ortofon's 2M series take over I feel, where the previous 500 range left off and offer some 'drive' as well as increasing refinement up-top as you go up the range. The Bronze seems to have bass 'welly' lacking in my OM30/Super OM30 (I have both bodies) and hope the Concorde version doesn't deviate from that. Whatever one thinks of Ortofon, they've shown excellent skills of being able to tweak a *perceived* tonal balance to order, by altering compliance and internal specs to suit.

Back to speakers. Good luck with your choice. Harbeth have come a long way since twenty odd years ago and their recent ventures into active speakers with dsp, have fed back apparently into the new passive models which continue to evolve. Well worth a listen and in my continuing opinion, they're way ahead from the resurrected vintage BBC-derived models of their competition, even if ASR interests are elsewhere (First Audio which would be almost double the asking price if sold via a dealer chain like KEF and of course, Ascilab, neither of which having wide distribution but worth looking up).

One more - what happened to the Fink-era Epos ES14N? It would appear to be carefully designed and lots of coverage a few years back with carefully optimised response for long-term listening. It seems to have got lost in all the noise around other resurrected model names from Mission and others...

 

[john61ct]

Since I often listen to vinyl records, I can't use digital loudness controls.

Wut? Why not?

Automatic curve variability with user adjustment of volume is absolutely required.

I have GFP-555 and Chase RLC-1, both "pure analog" and cheap - I enjoy their LC implementation.

I plan to compare with Schiit Forkbeard's once my measurements rig is set up

likely via their Eitr-2

but it may also be bult into other models

Forkbeard | Schiit Audio

www.schiit.com

Pre-amps with Loudness - OSD Pre-1 ?

Most of my source-switchers and volume controls are analog-only, which is my preference. I am also frugal, some months actually poor 8-( I like having physical tone controls, and miss the old variable loudness curve feature, ideally automatically coupled with the volume level, but I guess that...

www.audiosciencereview.com