Loudspeakers for quiet listening, with specific bass feature.

[Chrispy]

FWIW (and tldr) I've generally gone with Audyssey Dynamic EQ as the best available outside of the old world loudness contour options....

 

[staticV3]

Could You tell me something about active studio monitor? I read about midi field models with built in acoustic correction? Maybe this might be a solution- no need a other dsp device, no need standalone amp- less pairing and searching?

I've never heard of midi field models before, but there are active studio monitors with built-in room correction:

Genelec 83x0
Genelec 83x1 "the Ones"
Genelec Main Monitors

Neumann KH 80 DSP
Neumann KH 120 II
Neumann KH 150

iLoud Micro Monitor MKII
iLoud MTM MKII
iLoud Precision 5/6/MTM MKII

Adam Audio A series

Kali Audio SM series

Out of these, the iLoud models with microphone port built directly into the speakers are likely easiest to use as room correction on those runs entirely standalone: no need to install or configure anything, you just plug the mic into the monitor, press the Calibrate button, and the monitor does the rest.

That (should) take care of room modes, but you should still look into a way to apply Equal Loudness compensation for best results.

 

[Roland68]

Thanks a lot, I don't think equalizer meaning so much (long time ago I got one, analog dsp- only thing it did was making sound terrible, so I sold it and never return to eq)
Any alternatives to RME? Maybe some exaple of preamplifier with equalizer (how to start)

An analog equalizer is like a shotgun with a wide spread; you'll hit everything you don't intend to.
A DSP is like a precision rifle that only hits what it's meant to hit.
Unfortunately, your experience with the analog equalizer is irrelevant when it comes to the DSP.

 

[DanielT]

There are factors in speaker design that facilitate good bass on low volume, it's low mms and high bl. But those (and other T/S parameters) will not be specified in finished end products for consumers, as most don't even know what they mean and what they do. But basicly a light but stiff cone with a lot of motor (magnet) force do that best.

I once did build a speaker like that, and it was a MLTL with a 5.5" woofer with a very light cone. It works quiet well, it gave deep bass on 60dB also, even sitting 2m from it, something very little speakers can because the cone is to heavy and or the motor force (BL) is to weak. This speaker does not go loud off course, even hitting 100dB is pushing it with it.

How to spot those factors in a finished product is hard to say, only testing it can show you that. Nobody will publish T/S parameters (where MMS and BL are a part from) of their drivers, litterally nobody will.

And the Fletcher-Munson Curve plays against your wishes, our ears are not very sensitive to bass, so to hear it the volume must be higher than with mid tones. And room modes probally also are into play while cancelling out a part of the bass. So it's not only the speaker, but also your ears and the room acoustics. Keep that in mind.

Powerful good motor, high power handling, stiff light (paper) membrane/cone, high x-max, fairly large membrane area. There are woofers designed for that:
Mid- bass drivers/woofers.

But as you say, it's not the easiest thing to read in a commercial speaker if that type of woofer has been used.

A bit fascinating that it is possible to create woofers with high x-max that still have, for mid bass task, suitably high fs. You would think that such a woofer should be able to go lower in frequency but. AI summary:
I know you know it, I mention it for others who wonder about it

The fact is that the TS issue is something I have on my priority list. I have tested different combinations of sub plus bookshelf speakers but never really manage to get where I want with punchy mid bass. If I get the time and opportunity, some DIY with good midbass woofer would be really nice.

 

[MattHooper]

For quiet listening (70-85dB), in room about 4x5 m (14x16 ft)

Ha. I have a room essentially the same size and that’s loud listening for me.

 

[terryforsythe]

Hello.
I am writing post to ask for Your advice, with some dose of desperation. I want to upgrade my KEF Ref. 102 monitors to something more satisfying- I'll try to explain below:
- For quiet listening (70-85dB), in room about 4x5 m (14x16 ft)
- Detailed and pleasant bass reproduction (some sources described it as mid-bass) absolutely in first place- I like listening bass guitars, contrabass, lower register of viola da gamba parties.
Most loudspeakers I found, described as "bassy" give a lot of bass, in frequencies deeper than Mariana Trench, but muffled, mushy and detailless. Those KEFs also do as above- can "thump" low, but it is only background sound.
- Soft treble.
- Dimensions do not exceed 22x39 cm (width x depth)- rather modern thin column-shape, than classic big boxes (unfortunately).

I tried Focal Theva No 2 in presentation room- low and mids way better than expected, but higer frequencies were literally painful- (but for short session- quite impressive).
(other speakes I tried: Monitor Audio Bronze 300, Dali Oberon 7, Audiovector R3, Triangle Borea 07?/08?- all have recessed bass or required higher volumes to shine in lower frequencies*)
*Triangle was quite OK, but sounds too gentle.

I also read, opposite opinions, that I should search for 2 way speaker, because of room size, on the other hand, some say that 3-way are better beacuse of undistorted bass and mids and will be better in such aplication (where truth lies?).

Loudness filter- most amp I used sounds ugly, when this switch aplied- maybe some DSP/EQ will be better option?
Amp power does not matter for me, if speakers will sound fine, I am ready to get even nuclear powered amplifier.

Please, any suggestion, what features of ludspeaker will be crucial ? Or any examples?
Thanks a lot.

I feal your pain, or at least I did. In my opinion, generally speaking, active speakers produce the best bass response. The damping factor is very high as there are no inductors in series with the woofer adding DC resistance to the circuit. Good active speakers also implement DSP to smooth out the response, and sometimes also feature room correction.

Regarding passive 2-way vs. 3-way, a 3-way passive speaker usually crosses the woofer over fairly low, requiring one or more large inductors, which typically means high DC resistance. 2-way passive speakers usually cross over at a much higher frequency, thus using smaller inductors with less DC resistance, resulting in a better damping factor - the amplifier has better control over the woofer.

I became frustrated with the bass response of my Elac Uni-Fi Reference bookshelf speakers, even when using a subwoofer, DSP and Dirac Live room correction. The bass was not tight and no amount of tuning would get it to my preference, likely because the woofer was crossed over fairly low and there was high DC resistance in series with the woofer due to the inductors. I removed the passive crossovers and went all active. That solved my issue.

I also have a pair of KEF LS60 active speakers, and the bass out of those is very good - tight. If you have a KEF dealer near you, go take a listen to the LS60s to get an idea of what going all active does for the bass.

Clearly, I now am very partial to active speakers. But, if you want a passive speaker, given what you are looking for in bass response, I would look at a good 2-way speaker, e.g., the MoFi Sourcepoint 8 or Sourcepoint 10. EDIT: The Sourcepoints exceed your dimension requirements. Also, you already have a passive 2-way speaker, which seems to not be cutting it for you. So, before buying new speakers, I would first try room correction. That may help with your issue.

 

[dr_Evil]

Ok, I asked for advice and get it. Thx a lot.
I realize, that I starter from wrong principles. I try to start trials with room equalization, then I decide, if those Kef are still not satifying.

 

[ahofer]

Hi @dr_Evil! Welcome to ASR.

Good equal loudness compensation combined with room correction is the ticket to detailed, tight bass and great low volume playback.

Some of the best equal loudness compensation that you can buy is built into the RME ADI-2 DAC. It also has internal Parametric EQ for room correction. A UMIK-1 is highly recommended for the latter.

2-way or 3-way I don't think matters much when listening at low volume.

The quality of loudspeaker design plays a much bigger role.

E.g.
KEF, Ascilab, Neumann, Genelec, MoFi, Perlisten >> Triangle, Dali, Mission, Monitor Audio, B&W, Sonus Faber etc.

I want to echo earlier comments about loudness compensation. I live in an apartment so volume is by necessity controlled. I use the RME DAC which adjust the loudness contour to the volume setting so the bass doesn’t fall away as you turn it down

Buchardt speakers also have this feature in their active electronics.

 

[melomane13]

The KEF 102 is supposed to come with a special equalizer they call a "Kube 102"

Using The Controls: Tape - KEF 102 Installation Manual [Page 8]

KEF 102 Manual Online: Using The Controls: Tape.

www.manualslib.com

 

[Digital_Thor]

I second the LS60. They are tiny, but a full package. Further, they have sub out, if you want actual room compensation.
KEF also have a smooth dispersion making them less demanding about room and placement. No magic though... But definitely easier then many others.

 

[dr_Evil]

Ok,

The KEF 102 is supposed to come with a special equalizer they call a "Kube 102"

Using The Controls: Tape - KEF 102 Installation Manual [Page 8]

KEF 102 Manual Online: Using The Controls: Tape.

www.manualslib.com

Without Kube I recommend to avoid these speakers. Sounds like 3-way speaker with broken lower section.

One more question- if I understand correctly about iLoud monitor, they require some kind of source via xlr input, have onboard amplifier, they have 2 dB wide deviation from 45 to 20 000 Hz and maintain auto-magic calibration, which is source- independent. Is that means, I do not need separate: amp, dac, dsp? And own target sound curve can be aplied?
So, where is the trick?

 

[terryforsythe]

Ok,

Without Kube I recommend to avoid these speakers. Sounds like 3-way speaker with broken lower section.

One more question- if I understand correctly about iLoud monitor, they require some kind of source via xlr input, have onboard amplifier, they have 2 dB wide deviation from 45 to 20 000 Hz and maintain auto-magic calibration, which is source- independent. Is that means, I do not need separate: amp, dac, dsp? And own target sound curve can be aplied?
So, where is the trick?

It looks like the Kube implements equalization. You can do that any number of ways, depending on what music sources you are using. Something with DSP (e.g., a WiiM Pro, Pro+ or Ultra, or a miniDSP), and a Umik microphone may do the trick for you. You can download Room EQ Wizard (REW) software for free to do your measurements. REW also will analyze a measurement and tell you what EQ settings you need. EDIT: if using miniDSP, with many miniDSP models you can export your filter settings from REW and import them into the miniDSP.

In which iLoud monitor are you interested and what are your music sources? I saw one model with two pairs of analog inputs and Bluetooth, and another model with just a single Combo XLR-1/4" input for each speaker, in which case you probably would want a pre-amp/streamer, such as one of the aforementioned WiiMs.

It looks like the iLoud monitors are intended to be near-field monitors. I'm not sure how they will work for your use case. Maybe dig a little deeper to see if they will work for how you will be using them. You might also take a look at Kali active bookshelf speakers, which are moderately priced. Genelecs are fantastic, but not cheap. Anyway, here is a review of the MTM MKII:

 

[tineared]

I still recommend that you audition some tower speakers with a minimum of 6" drivers. They are more efficient at delivering fuller bass at lower volumes if you don't have access to a "loudness" feature on your preamp. Active speakers would certainly be an advantage toward that goal, but are not necessary.
All else being equal, a tower will outperform a bookshelf in lower frequencies every time

 

[Chrispy]

I still recommend that you audition some tower speakers with a minimum of 6" drivers. They are more efficient at delivering fuller bass at lower volumes if you don't have access to a "loudness" feature on your preamp. Active speakers would certainly be an advantage toward that goal, but are not necessary.
All else being equal, a tower will outperform a bookshelf in lower frequencies every time

Not that that's a general rule, would depend on size of the standmount vs tower box and drivers and construction among other things. A tower with only 6" drivers to me is a waste of a box

 

[terryforsythe]

I still recommend that you audition some tower speakers with a minimum of 6" drivers.

My KEF LS60 speakers each have 5.25" woofers, and they sound fantastic in my office, 4.2m x 3.6m x 3.7m. But, there are four of them in each speaker.

 

[Johnkeizer]

I also listen at 70 to 80 dB at just on 2.4m. Plenty of bass with body to probably low 30hz, all my 8 m room can take without muddying things. Very efficient, only use a few watts most of the time.

 

[melomane13]

Without Kube I recommend to avoid these speakers. Sounds like 3-way speaker with broken lower section.

But you have Kube eq ?

 

[Johnkeizer]

i had the original KEF R107 which came with a KUBE. The KUBE was crap, cheaply built, constantly injecting noise and hum into the system.
Bought a mk2 KUBE when it came out, not as flexible but at least was quiet and trouble free and much better built.

 

[DanielT]

Since active speakers were mentioned in the thread. With a good construction and a good woofer, small active speakers, such as the Adam Audio T5V in the link below, can produce relatively (given size box/woofer)) decent bass. This is also compared to active speakers more or less in the same size class:

Done! Track after track sounded beautiful. There was surprising amount of bass combined with ability to get quite loud. The low notes were creating a physical sensation and reverberated throughout my huge space. And my "speaker killer" tracks had no such attribute with Adam T5V. Even at extremely elevated levels there was either zero or just a hint of distortion in the deep bass. Superbly implemented tuning of the bass is in play here folks.

Figuring there would be a lot of interest in knowing how it compares to other speakers, I first paired it with Neumman KH80 DSP. No contest. The little KH80 while sounding smooth, could not remotely produce the same bass and loudness. As a result it sounded quite thin.

I substituted the JBL 305P Mark II. Again, no contest. The 305p had far less bass and could not play nearly as loud.

So I pulled in the Kali LP6. I was quite surprised that the Adam T5V with its smaller woofer was able to once again produce more bass. I think this is due to the shelving of the upper bass in LP6. Regardless, the T5V sounded much warmer and balanced due to more bass energy. And it could play even louder than the LP6!

Quick testing for hiss showed that I could not hear much past a few inches away from Adam tweeter. So really not a problem -- at least not in my sample.

I then sat back and just listened. And listened. Joy, oh joy!

Adam T5V Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Adam T5V Powered Speaker. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The T5V costs US $200 each. Much like the rest of Adam speakers, the T5V has a serious look to it: Back panel shows good connectivity and usual...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With DSP it is possible to go down low in frequency, but with a small speaker box, size of woofers, the compromise becomes SPL (Hofmann's Iron Law):

Palmer Orbit 11 Monitor Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the Palmer Orbit 11 Cardioid coaxial professional monitor (powered speaker). It was sent to me by the company and costs US $899 each. This is a cute but super dense and have little thing! :) I don't think filling it with lead...

www.audiosciencereview.com

20 Hz f10 with such small speakers, hm. I would have preferred to choose down to around 40 Hz then with increased SPL capacity.A question of needs, likes and tastes and so on.,