Loudspeakers for quiet listening, with specific bass feature.

[dr_Evil]

Hello.
I am writing post to ask for Your advice, with some dose of desperation. I want to upgrade my KEF Ref. 102 monitors to something more satisfying- I'll try to explain below:
- For quiet listening (70-85dB), in room about 4x5 m (14x16 ft)
- Detailed and pleasant bass reproduction (some sources described it as mid-bass) absolutely in first place- I like listening bass guitars, contrabass, lower register of viola da gamba parties.
Most loudspeakers I found, described as "bassy" give a lot of bass, in frequencies deeper than Mariana Trench, but muffled, mushy and detailless. Those KEFs also do as above- can "thump" low, but it is only background sound.
- Soft treble.
- Dimensions do not exceed 22x39 cm (width x depth)- rather modern thin column-shape, than classic big boxes (unfortunately).

I tried Focal Theva No 2 in presentation room- low and mids way better than expected, but higer frequencies were literally painful- (but for short session- quite impressive).
(other speakes I tried: Monitor Audio Bronze 300, Dali Oberon 7, Audiovector R3, Triangle Borea 07?/08?- all have recessed bass or required higher volumes to shine in lower frequencies*)
*Triangle was quite OK, but sounds too gentle.

I also read, opposite opinions, that I should search for 2 way speaker, because of room size, on the other hand, some say that 3-way are better beacuse of undistorted bass and mids and will be better in such aplication (where truth lies?).

Loudness filter- most amp I used sounds ugly, when this switch aplied- maybe some DSP/EQ will be better option?
Amp power does not matter for me, if speakers will sound fine, I am ready to get even nuclear powered amplifier.

Please, any suggestion, what features of ludspeaker will be crucial ? Or any examples?
Thanks a lot.

 

[staticV3]

Hi @dr_Evil! Welcome to ASR.

Good equal loudness compensation combined with room correction is the ticket to detailed, tight bass and great low volume playback.

Some of the best equal loudness compensation that you can buy is built into the RME ADI-2 DAC. It also has internal Parametric EQ for room correction. A UMIK-1 is highly recommended for the latter.

2-way or 3-way I don't think matters much when listening at low volume.

The quality of loudspeaker design plays a much bigger role.

E.g.
KEF, Ascilab, Neumann, Genelec, MoFi, Perlisten >> Triangle, Dali, Mission, Monitor Audio, B&W, Sonus Faber etc.

 

[illusonic]

- Detailed and pleasant bass reproduction (some sources described it as mid-bass) absolutely in first place- I like listening bass guitars, contrabass, lower register of viola da gamba parties.

Can you name a few songs that comprise the bass features you're looking for?

I'm also using equal loudness compensation from RME. While not perfect it's the best I know outside VST processing on PC.
In fact that's the only reason I use the RME ADI-2 Pro. So you see how high I value the feature.

 

[Roland68]

Hello.
I am writing post to ask for Your advice, with some dose of desperation. I want to upgrade my KEF Ref. 102 monitors to something more satisfying- I'll try to explain below:
- For quiet listening (70-85dB), in room about 4x5 m (14x16 ft)
- Detailed and pleasant bass reproduction (some sources described it as mid-bass) absolutely in first place- I like listening bass guitars, contrabass, lower register of viola da gamba parties.
Most loudspeakers I found, described as "bassy" give a lot of bass, in frequencies deeper than Mariana Trench, but muffled, mushy and detailless. Those KEFs also do as above- can "thump" low, but it is only background sound.
- Soft treble.
- Dimensions do not exceed 22x39 cm (width x depth)- rather modern thin column-shape, than classic big boxes (unfortunately).

I tried Focal Theva No 2 in presentation room- low and mids way better than expected, but higer frequencies were literally painful- (but for short session- quite impressive).
(other speakes I tried: Monitor Audio Bronze 300, Dali Oberon 7, Audiovector R3, Triangle Borea 07?/08?- all have recessed bass or required higher volumes to shine in lower frequencies*)
*Triangle was quite OK, but sounds too gentle.

I also read, opposite opinions, that I should search for 2 way speaker, because of room size, on the other hand, some say that 3-way are better beacuse of undistorted bass and mids and will be better in such aplication (where truth lies?).

Loudness filter- most amp I used sounds ugly, when this switch aplied- maybe some DSP/EQ will be better option?
Amp power does not matter for me, if speakers will sound fine, I am ready to get even nuclear powered amplifier.

Please, any suggestion, what features of ludspeaker will be crucial ? Or any examples?
Thanks a lot.

I know what you mean, and you're actually looking for something very simple, but not so easy to achieve.
What you're looking for is a reproduction that reproduces exactly what's on the music, nothing more and nothing less. That means a reproduction that adds, removes, or alters nothing. That's the original audiophile ideal. Incidentally, that's also the definition of beauty, for example, in art.

This is particularly difficult with bass and mid-bass.
Every loudspeaker has a range where it can no longer reproduce the bass at the same volume as the rest of the sound. This is usually expressed with a specification like, for example, 30 Hz -8dB.
At the same time, bass drivers eventually reach their limit at low frequencies when the driver size and excursion are no longer sufficient to adequately reproduce these low frequencies. Firstly, this puts a strain on the drivers and can even lead to damage or destruction. Secondly, it also degrades the reproduction in the bass, mid-bass, and midrange frequencies, if these are reproduced by the same drivers.
This is what leads to a so-called muddy and indistinct bass response.

So you're looking for speakers that can reproduce the bass extension you desire. At the same time, a subsonic filter should be used to attenuate all frequencies that the speaker can no longer reproduce easily, whether that's 30, 40, or even 50 Hz.

Large floorstanding speakers, depending on the room size, with, for example, two 17 to 20 cm drivers, are a good starting point.

Whether you use a DSP or active speakers with DSP is a matter of personal preference. However, with active speakers, you can also adapt the reproduction to the room acoustics, which is particularly beneficial for the bass and mid-bass.


Then you can also adjust the sound to the room acoustics, which is especially beneficial for the bass and mid-bass.
Here in the forum you'll find several threads about DSP, Acourate, and other software, as well as crossover software for Windows, Linux, macOS, etc.

With my Heco Aurora 700 speakers, which already have a good and clean bass response, I'm surprised how much the speakers benefit when I set the subwoofer cutoff frequency on the A30a to 70 Hz (without a subwoofer).

Of course, there's nothing wrong with a well-tuned system that includes a subwoofer.

 

[dr_Evil]

Can you name a few songs that comprise the bass features you're looking for?
(...)

E.g. Riverside: Reality Dream or midi parts of Second life syndrome, "Mabel" by Branford Marsalis (quick exa.pkes, there's more)

@Roland86, EqualizerAPO might be ok?

 

[Roland68]

E.g. Riverside: Reality Dream or midi parts of Second life syndrome, "Mabel" by Branford Marsalis (quick exa.pkes, there's more)

@Roland86, EqualizerAPO might be ok?

Sure, anything you can use to filter out the lower frequency ranges that can't be reproduced perfectly is fine.

 

[fragzone]

As stated, you need room correction, and even if you get the bass dialled to the main listening position, as you move around the room the bass will sound drastically different depending on where you are, owing to room modes. If you only care about the main listening position then this won't be an issue, and within reason, EQ can be very effective at balancing bass output/reducing group delay (think boomy/sluggish bass) in the bass region. Otherwise, you will need 2 subwoofers to provide spatially consistent bass production. This one was a brutal realization for me coming from the headphone world. You're telling me I can spend thousands on well regarded speakers and still end up with horrendous sound?!! WHAT!?

40hz at -3db in-room is an oft-stated lower limit of bass reproduction that should provide adequate bass (and aligns with the instruments you are looking to replicate) for a lot of music but that is a heavily debated topic, here at audiosciencereview and elsewhere, so don't take that as a universally accepted standard. Regardless, it's a sufficient limit for my purposes at least. Another constraint is the room size. You have a smaller room like mine (4m x 5m) and so this is quite easily achieved with a set of tower speakers or even some bookshelf speakers in this day and age, especially when high SPL isn't a consideration. It's not recommended to rely on manufacturer specs regarding bass output, although it isn't recommended to buy any speaker that hasn't been objectively assessed anyway. I'm sure you won't find any shortage of measurements here help you guide your purchasing decision, which will inform you of a speakers bass performance and tonality. If you don't intend to employ subwoofers, you really want to pay attention to the "estimated in-room response" curve which is showcased in all speaker reviews here, which is quite good at predicting bass-output in a room, which is generally going to be higher than the anechoic measured response of the speaker.

Your post is essentially asking to find a speaker that solves the pinnacle issue of any speaker setup, and this was a big realization for myself when getting into the speaker game. Room modes are an absolute bitch, they will make a mockery of even the most expensive speakers because it's largely a room-dependent phenomena. This is ASR posters generally roll their eyes when they see the subjective style reviewer either praising or detracting from a speaker for claiming "well dialled and balanced" or "sluggish and boomy" bass respectively, as if they are innate properties of the speaker itself, which it usually isn't for any halfway decent speaker. KEF has been known to pare back the bass output with the assumption the speaker will be jammed up against the wall in a domestic setting (resulting in increased bass output owing to the boundary reinforcement phenomena), but that is just one approach and there is no right answer, but something else to consider.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts that I hope will help. Cheers

 

[illusonic]

E.g. Riverside: Reality Dream or midi parts of Second life syndrome, "Mabel" by Branford Marsalis (quick exa.pkes, there's more)

Checked your songs with speakers and headphones and did not find anything in the bass that would be particularly hard play for speakers. My best guess is that you need some EQ for your speakers and room as others pointed out already. Equal loudness compensation for volume control would also help.

 

[Waxx]

There are factors in speaker design that facilitate good bass on low volume, it's low mms and high bl. But those (and other T/S parameters) will not be specified in finished end products for consumers, as most don't even know what they mean and what they do. But basicly a light but stiff cone with a lot of motor (magnet) force do that best.

I once did build a speaker like that, and it was a MLTL with a 5.5" woofer with a very light cone. It works quiet well, it gave deep bass on 60dB also, even sitting 2m from it, something very little speakers can because the cone is to heavy and or the motor force (BL) is to weak. This speaker does not go loud off course, even hitting 100dB is pushing it with it.

How to spot those factors in a finished product is hard to say, only testing it can show you that. Nobody will publish T/S parameters (where MMS and BL are a part from) of their drivers, litterally nobody will.

And the Fletcher-Munson Curve plays against your wishes, our ears are not very sensitive to bass, so to hear it the volume must be higher than with mid tones. And room modes probally also are into play while cancelling out a part of the bass. So it's not only the speaker, but also your ears and the room acoustics. Keep that in mind.

 

[EERecordist]

Today a calibrated USB measurement microphone is about $100, and Room EQ Wizard is free software that runs on a laptop. That combination can tell a lot about a room, with the next step DSP room correction. If you look through the Klippel spinorama test data you can see the distortion at low frequencies rising and the system resonances. The general theory is a stiffer cone material produces fewer harmonics because a stiffer cone is closer to a perfect pisteon. I'm a fan of servo feedback subwoofers which have few makers. I would agree with other ASR commenters suggesting rolling off the frequencies you don't need. Professional bass conditioning of a room like the Westlake Hidley-designed rooms is very expensive and takes up a lot of space. I'm not knowledgeable about home bass conditioning. Your preference for low volumes helps.

The Hidley rooms are discussed in this article:

The BOP Studios Story

The most lavish recording facility ever built is not in London, New York or LA, but a remote part of South Africa. We trace the extraordinary story of BOP Studios.

www.soundonsound.com

and

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229076726_Sound_field_characterisation_and_absorption_measurement_of_wideband_absorbers

If you have the opportunity to listen to those instruments live or play them, you are in a great position to evaluate them reproduced by speakers.

 

[illusonic]

And the Fletcher-Munson Curve plays against your wishes, our ears are not very sensitive to bass, so to hear it the volume must be higher than with mid tones. And room modes probally also are into play while cancelling out a part of the bass. So it's not only the speaker, but also your ears and the room acoustics. Keep that in mind.

For me the effect of loudness compensation volume is that I often listen at very low levels. It's probaly correct that some speakers resolve low-level bass signals better than others. But our hearing limits low-level bass resolution even more. It's a pitty that there are no low-cost preamps with loudness compensated volume.

 

[dr_Evil]

Checked your songs with speakers and headphones and did not find anything in the bass that would be particularly hard play for speakers.

Yes, because I need clear bass, rather than overhelming and reaching lowest frequencies. In most speakers I know, upper bass / lower mid are not engaging.
So, I need just low distortion speakers, that can take equalization.
Thx

 

[illusonic]

Just found that @Quick Waipa has shown correct filter curves for loudness compensation on github:

GitHub - musios-app/equal-loudness: Use simple EQ to simulate the audio balance at a different loudness without changing your volume.

Use simple EQ to simulate the audio balance at a different loudness without changing your volume. - musios-app/equal-loudness

github.com

A new EQ tool for sound correction based on equal-loudness contours

I’d like to introduce a free tool I developed for more natural and musical sound correction of PC audio. It’s based on my own approach that incorporates equal-loudness contours, and it has the following key features: Blends a flat target response with curves derived from equal-loudness...

www.audiosciencereview.com

RME does it different which works ok but is nevertheless not correct when starting with Fletcher-Munson curves:

I think RME should implement a correct version in their $$$ gear.

 

[illusonic]

Yes, because I need clear bass, rather than overhelming and reaching lowest frequencies. In most speakers I know, upper bass / lower mid are not engaging.
So, I need just low distortion speakers, that can take equalization.
Thx

At low playback level distortion is usually not the problem. I think loudness-compensated volume is your ticket. Currently it's unfortunately quite expensive due to RME gear. But EQ is also included. So at least you get all you need.

 

[tineared]

Yes, because I need clear bass, rather than overhelming and reaching lowest frequencies. In most speakers I know, upper bass / lower mid are not engaging.
So, I need just low distortion speakers, that can take equalization.
Thx

I would suggest you listen to a pair of KEF R7s. They should provide the fuller clean bass and lower midrange you're looking for. If needed, you can include equalization.

 

[Tell]

I would suggest you listen to a pair of KEF R7s. They should provide the fuller clean bass and lower midrange you're looking for. If needed, you can include equalization.

He doesn't need new speakers, all he needs is equalization in one form or another.

 

[dr_Evil]

Thanks a lot, I don't think equalizer meaning so much (long time ago I got one, analog dsp- only thing it did was making sound terrible, so I sold it and never return to eq)
Any alternatives to RME? Maybe some exaple of preamplifier with equalizer (how to start)

 

[3125b]

There are a number of options, to determine what would work best for you it would be necessary to get an overview of your current system. What components do you use (all of the ones in the chain), what is the room layout and furnishings?
You don't need to start out buying anything. If you have access to a computer and a microphone (doesn't have to be calibrated just to get an idea) you can start testing room correction and whatever other DSP feature you might want.
And then you go from there. Depending on the devices you currently have, it might make sense to buy some things like an amplifier or preamp with DSP for example, but cross that bridge when you get there.

 

[AA63]

"I want to upgrade my KEF Ref. 102 monitors to something more satisfying" - meaning you aren't satisfied with your speakers at all? Have you tried room measuring/eq'ing?
If you have and you just don't like your speakers...

More satisfying to you is a you and yours alone decision. Go listen to a bunch of speakers and audition them at your required volume level (get a db app on your phone) - to see if any match up to what you want. If you find some, buy them and see if it works in your space. If it doesn't, you have a room mode problems and are back at my first question, have you tried room measuring/eq?

 

[dr_Evil]

Could You tell me something about active studio monitor? I read about midi field models with built in acoustic correction? Maybe this might be a solution- no need a other dsp device, no need standalone amp- less pairing and searching?