Loudspeaker Design Panel @ T.H.E. Show (July 2015)

[hardisj]

This is 5 years old but still good. If you have an hour to kill, this is a great panel discussion with some of the most prominent guys in the loudspeaker design business. I find it very interesting to see how they differ in opinion on the subject of data vs subjective analysis but also have a lot of agreement as well.

Video Description:
We’ve assembled some of the world’s greatest loudspeaker designers for this lively and informative Q&A session. Bring your questions about speakers for the foremost experts in the field.

Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound, Moderator
Robert Harley has been the Editor-in-Chief of The Absolute Sound since 2001 and is the author of The Complete Guide to High-End Audio (now in a fourth edition). He is also the editor of, and a key contributor to, The Absolute Sound’s Illustrated History of High-End Audio, Volume One: Loudspeakers, which is the basis for this seminar. Before becoming a full-time audio writer in 1989, Robert worked as a recording engineer, CD mastering engineer, and taught a college degree program in recording engineering.

Panelists
Andrew Jones, ELAC America, VP of Engineering
Andrew Jones is the VP of Engineering for a ELAC America, a newly formed subsidiary of ELAC Germany, founded to bring extraordinary value to speaker products at all price categories. Previously the Director and Chief Engineer of Technical Audio Devices Laboratories, Inc. he has had a long career in the research, development and design of loudspeaker systems, from the research group of Dr. Malcolm Hawksford, to the R&D Department of KEF (ultimately becoming KEF’s Chief Engineer), to the Infinity division of HARMAN International, and for 17 years as Director of speaker engineer for Pioneer and TAD.

Michael Borreson, Raidho Acoustics, Chief Designer & President
Michael Borreson has been building loudspeakers as a hobby since childhood and professionally with Raidho Acoustics for the last 15 years. He has an MSc degree in mechanical engineering in materials and vibration. His principle area of focus has been on the materials science of loudspeaker driver development, along with the complex interaction of speakers vs. human hearing and psychoacoustic capabilities. www.raidho.dk

Richard Vandersteen, Vandersteen Audio, Owner
Richard Vandersteen founded Vandersteen Audio, one of the most successful loudspeaker manufacturers in the world, more than 35 years ago starting with the iconic Model 2. He went on to design other landmark speakers including the Model 5 and Model 2W subwoofer, and culminating in today’s flagship Model 7 and other great loudspeakers.

Albert Von Schweikert, Von Schweikert Audio, Owner
Albert Von Schweikert’s loudspeaker career began in 1979 when he became Dr. Oskar Heil’s assistant at ESS Laboratory. He went on work for KSC Industries where he designed raw speaker parts for Infinity, JBL, Klipsch, Polk, and 32 other companies. Albert then worked as a consultant to Counterpoint Electronics where he designed their THX Cinema line. He started Von Schweikert Research in 1994. In Albert’s 36-year career, he has designed more than 200 speakers systems and has eight patents pending for his inventions in audio technology

Kevin Voecks, Harman Luxury Audio Group, Product Development Manager
Kevin Voecks became known to the audiophile community when he joined Snell Acoustics in the mid-1980’s. He was hand-picked by Sidney Harman to lead Revel Loudspeakers, part of the Harman Luxury Audio Group. There he leads a team that has made numerous technical innovations in loudspeaker design and that produces a large line of outstanding loudspeaker products. www.revelspeakers.com

Arnie Nudell, Infinity Systems and Genesis Technology, Co-founder
Arnie Nudell holds a BS degree in physics from Berkeley, a Master’s degree in nuclear physics from UCLA, and completed all Ph.D requirements at that university. Arnie worked at Hughes Research Lab when the first laser was invented. While working as head of the laser group at Litton Industries, Arnie, a lifelong music lover, teamed up with John Ulrich to create a speaker that became the Infinity Servo-Statik. In 1968 they founded Infinity Systems. Arnie is the designer of the Infinity Reference Standard (IRS), one of the most iconic products in high-end audio history.

 

[hardisj]

As an aside, I have to say... I had heard of Vandersteen Audio before. I just always kind of assumed they were one of those high-end companies that put more emphasis on subjective evaluation. So, watching Mr. Vandersteen talk in this video (as well as the one I link below) was really refreshing. He just seems to passionate about learning and sharing. In a way, I feel like he would be the kind of guy I would love to have as a mentor because he seems to care about the "extra" stuff that many may not delve in to. The same kind of stuff I find interesting. Just the tangential engineering aspect of him seems really cool.

 

[MattHooper]

Thanks for the vid. Will check it out!

 

[pozz]

The comment Andrew Jones made about seperate subs leaving integration in the consumer's hands is dead-on. The endless threads about this very problem is testament to that.

 

[richard12511]

The comment Andrew Jones made about seperate subs leaving integration in the consumer's hands is dead-on. The endless threads about this very problem is testament to that.

Attached subs makes integration almost impossible in most rooms, though, so leaving integration in the hands of the consumer seems like the lesser of two evils. At least the user has a chance(if they somewhat know what they're doing).

I suppose the best of both worlds would be to have separate subs, and have Andrew Jones come out and integrate them for you.

 

[pozz]

Attached subs makes integration almost impossible in most rooms, though, so leaving integration in the hands of the consumer seems like the lesser of two evils. At least the user has a chance(if they somewhat know what they're doing).

I suppose the best of both worlds would be to have separate subs, and have Andrew Jones come out and integrate them for you.

It was interesting to see his perspective: the speaker designer spends so much time perfecting driver integration, but for this critical area of the audible range the job is given away. The experience and tools to do it right are hard won, even here.

It brings to mind the older point source ideal of a loudspeaker. It's a heavy abstraction, in the sense that it proposes a single radiation pattern for all frequencies. So it's not accurate in terms of actual instrument radiation patterns nor perceptually accurate in terms of how it projects sound into a room. When we get to the point that radiation itself is a musical datum we will need a loudspeaker that can vary that parameter as necessary.

 

[richard12511]

It was interesting to see his perspective: the speaker designer spends so much time perfecting driver integration, but for this critical area of the audible range the job is given away. The experience and tools to do it right are hard won, even here.

I've heard him say this before, and even though I disagree with him there, I can understand that perspective. I could see where it would be frustrating, to some extent. Someone who's invested so much time in the craft, and someone who seems like such a perfectionist, probably wants absolute control over every aspect of the sound. The truth, though, is that speaker designers have very poor control over what the speaker's bass will sound like in a random room. It's like trying to design a road bike, but all you have control over is the seat.

But yeah, I do think it's given away for good reason. No matter how superior his integration skills are to mine, he still only controls the least important part(the speaker). No matter how inferior my integration skills are, I still control the most important part(the room). Ferdinand Porche is no doubt a better car designer than me, but I could probably design a faster car than him if he only has control of the wheels, and I have control of everything but the wheels.

I will say, though, I might not be looking at this from the "average consumer" perspective, so maybe that's warping my view a bit. I'm looking at it from someone who has complete placement freedom(live alone), multiple subs, and the ability and willingness to measure, move, and individually adjust delays for 50+ hours to get good integration and response. It's probably true that the typical consumer is more likely to run 1 sub, right next to either the front right or front left, and probably not spend a ton of time trying to integrate that sub. In that case, I think it's much more of a crapshoot, they might be better off just getting bigger mains and not worrying about a sub. He might be right, looking at it that way.

 

[pozz]

I've heard him say this before, and even though I disagree with him there, I can understand that perspective. I could see where it would be frustrating, to some extent. Someone who's invested so much time in the craft, and someone who seems like such a perfectionist, probably wants absolute control over every aspect of the sound. The truth, though, is that speaker designers have very poor control over what the speaker's bass will sound like in a random room. It's like trying to design a road bike, but all you have control over is the seat.

But yeah, I do think it's given away for good reason. No matter how superior his integration skills are to mine, he still only controls the least important part(the speaker). No matter how inferior my integration skills are, I still control the most important part(the room). Ferdinand Porche is no doubt a better car designer than me, but I could probably design a faster car than him if he only has control of the wheels, and I have control of everything but the wheels.

I will say, though, I might not be looking at this from the "average consumer" perspective, so maybe that's warping my view a bit. I'm looking at it from someone who has complete placement freedom(live alone), multiple subs, and the ability and willingness to measure, move, and individually adjust delays for 50+ hours to get good integration and response. It's probably true that the typical consumer is more likely to run 1 sub, right next to either the front right or front left, and probably not spend a ton of time trying to integrate that sub. In that case, I think it's much more of a crapshoot, they might be better off just getting bigger mains and not worrying about a sub. He might be right, looking at it that way.

He is always talking about trade-offs. I think they weigh heavily on him. In his mind he is always trying to optimize for unknowns, like your room. Like his point about small, cheap speakers: they are always a technical compromise, so his opinion about the most critical aspects of speaker design stands out in those products perhaps more than others. Given that his flagships are more or less full-range, I would guess that he views the ideal speaker as one which requires the least from the purchaser in terms of setup time and the like.

 

[richard12511]

He is always talking about trade-offs. I think they weigh heavily on him. In his mind he is always trying to optimize for unknowns, like your room. Like his point about small, cheap speakers: they are always a technical compromise, so his opinion about the most critical aspects of speaker design stands out in those products perhaps more than others. Given that his flagships are more or less full-range, I would guess that he views the ideal speaker as one which requires the least from the purchaser in terms of setup time and the like.

He is. I'd be really interested to hear his thoughts on the tradeoffs between the Debut Reference and the Adante. Adante he had a higher budget to work with(probably), but the Debut Reference was a design that he's more known for and probably almost. perfected

I tend to prefer full range speakers, myself. It's nice to have the option to crossover a bit lower if needed for the room. I also just like the way they look more, and they're less dangerous, and they don't really take up any more floor space.

 

[ttimer]

I will say, though, I might not be looking at this from the "average consumer" perspective, so maybe that's warping my view a bit. I'm looking at it from someone who has complete placement freedom(live alone), multiple subs, and the ability and willingness to measure, move, and individually adjust delays for 50+ hours to get good integration and response. It's probably true that the typical consumer is more likely to run 1 sub, right next to either the front right or front left, and probably not spend a ton of time trying to integrate that sub. In that case, I think it's much more of a crapshoot, they might be better off just getting bigger mains and not worrying about a sub. He might be right, looking at it that way.

I think there might be quite a bit of warping involved. To be honest, if it took that long to properly integrate a sub (every time i'm moving house), i would just spend that time earning money and pay the premium for a pair of D&D or Geithain with directional bass control.

 

[richard12511]

I think there might be quite a bit of warping involved. To be honest, if it took that long to properly integrate a sub (every time i'm moving house), i would just spend that time earning money and pay the premium for a pair of D&D or Geithain with directional bass control.

Don't know much about the Geithian's, but the D&Ds would be a huge waste of money in that room. The D&D's directional bass is pretty cool, and I truly believe it will give a superior bass response compared to a traditional 2.0 setup(@napilopez posted some great measurements of that if you're interested), but the D&Ds couldn't come close to replicating the quality and extension of the bass I have in that room. I'd still end up crossing them over at 100Hz, wasting much of what you're paying for with those. They aIso lack the required output above 100Hz to properly service that room. That said, I do plan on auditioning them against some other great speakers for my smaller, sealed, 2 channel room I'll be building, so I may end up with them at some point. That's a ways off, though.

To be fair, much of that time was wasted learning how to really use REW, Dirac, Dirac BM, and miniDSP. I could probably do it in weekend or two if I had to do it again. By comparison, my office system I just built was in a much smaller and much easier room(perfect rectangle). That system took me maybe an hour to setup. I just stuck 1 sub in each of the four corners, ran Audyssey, and I was satisfied with the response it produced.