Loudspeaker cable test and comparison

[Spkrdctr]

the null tester , with sensing the snaky snake manufacturers pure snake oil cable as pure bs

I think he is saying that it is all BS!!

 

[killdozzer]

Dutch online audio site Alpha-audio did an extensive test of loudspeaker cables in the price range around € 900,- (1 cable was more expensive).
First they tested all cables and after that a blind listening test was done by 2 other people who didn't see the test results.
The one who did the testing made a top 3 according to the test results and the 2 people who did the blind test also made a top 3, interesting is that they all choose the same cable as the best and that there are some differences but the 3 best tested cables are also at least 1 time in a top 3 of the people who did the blind test.

Only fault I can see is that they use a 0,75mm2 generic cable as reference to show the difference to the expensive cables and I think they should at least have used a 1,5 or 2,5 mm2 generic cable as reference.

It's an elaborate test so a long read but for me it is interesting because I still doubt the use of expensive loudspeaker cables and according to the test there is a difference.

So I like to hear other peoples opinion about the test and the results.

https://alpha-audio.net/review/megatest-speaker-cables-real-measurements-samples-and-blind-test/

My 2 cents is this is beating on a dead horse. The next time this should even be mentioned is if a SQ improving cable ever gets made. Until then it's just over and over and over; it doesn't make any difference when proper gauge is used.

 

[killdozzer]

Hi Jaap, thanks for tuning in on the discussion.
Hope the guys are not too harsh on you this time while discussing the test and results.

I like the effort that you make to keep alpha-audio as neutral as possible and that you invest all this time and money to provide good information.

as neutral as what?? They literally said network switches make a difference...

 

[fpitas]

My 2 cents is this is beating on a dead horse. The next time this should even be mentioned is if a SQ improving cable ever gets made. Until then it's just over and over and over; it doesn't make any difference when proper gauge is used.

Oh, I don't know about that. A decent gauge is required of course; but some boutique cables can make amps oscillate. Here's an interesting article that discusses the subject intelligently:

Loudspeaker Cable Characteristic Impedance

What is the effect of the characteristic impedance of a loudspeaker cable? Is it important to match the cable to the speaker load impedance, or is this simply a marketing ploy?

sound-au.com

Some audiophile somewhere is admiring the bizarre sounds of his amplifier distorting.

 

[Spkrdctr]

who is this ASR guy ? he keeps mentioning ? not me .

There you go. A very in depth deep dive into speaker wires and how to test them. Very good spoof video!

 

[killdozzer]

Oh, I don't know about that. A decent gauge is required of course; but some boutique cables can make amps oscillate. Here's an interesting article that discusses the subject intelligently:

Loudspeaker Cable Characteristic Impedance

What is the effect of the characteristic impedance of a loudspeaker cable? Is it important to match the cable to the speaker load impedance, or is this simply a marketing ploy?

sound-au.com

Some audiophile somewhere is admiring the bizarre sounds of his amplifier distorting.

No, nothing is required. It's all been done in the last century. It is almost impossible to further discuss it intelligently unless you're just starting with it. Bizarre audiophiles and boutique cables bare no relevance. Fantasy does not relate to anything measurable in the gear. Yes, some boutiques WILL make cables bad enough to introduce distortion. Those are just bad cables.

But at least I agree with your first sentence.

 

[Ducnguyen2k10]

Thanks for picking up our test. Appreciate it.

We did the best we can. The point of the livestream was to show 100% transparency. The listeners don't look during swapping (you can see that on camera). Measurements are all described in the article.

The whole point of this test is check if there is actually a difference in speaker cables. Is it audible (samples / listening) and can it be measured? (with the LCR and speaker response). Well... we tried. You can decide on the results.

Can we improve? Sure... No doubt. We don't claim that we are the best scientific instutute in the world. But at least we try to test stuff in a decent way.

There are few books you guys have to read and study before go further into blind test:
- Statistics for dummies by Deborah-J-Rumsey
- Critical Listening Skills for Audio Professionals by F-Alton-Everest
- Acoustics and psychoacoustics by David M Howard
- Sound Reproduction by Floyd Toole

Trust me! What’s you doing is just wasting time and effort! After reading these books, you can find better methods, more precise and meaningful tests. You guys are just wandering around and getting no where because you’re doing it wrong!

 

[Speedskater]

Well it's not a question of proving that there is not difference.
It's a question of an audiophile showing that he can hear a difference in an ears only demonstration.

 

[fpitas]

Frankly, if Amir (for example) can measure no difference, yet some guy somewhere can reliably hear a difference, that kind of rewrites the laws of physics.

 

[Speedskater]

Frankly, if Amir (for example) can measure no difference, yet some guy somewhere can reliably hear a difference, that kind of rewrites the laws of physics.

Well no. if some guy can, ears only demonstrate that he can hear a difference. Then a skilled person with the correct test equipment needs to look for the cause of the difference. This needed to be done at the same time as the demonstration.
What happens on the test bench is one thing. What happens in a real life situation is another.
* * * * * * * * * * * *
But almost always, when put to a ears only challenge, that guy won't hear a difference.

 

[fpitas]

Well no. if some guy can, ears only demonstrate that he can hear a difference. Then a skilled person with the correct test equipment needs to look for the cause of the difference. This needed to be done at the same time as the demonstration.
What happens on the test bench is one thing. What happens in a real life situation is another.

We're agreeing. I meant a blind test, not some screwball YouTube video test.

 

[Speedskater]

Now, if that guy can actually hear a difference, I would:
Without moving any of the audio equipment or cables and not touching any of the controls or setting.
Using a battery powered sensitive True RMS voltmeter and a battery powered 50 MHz O-scope.
Examine the systems audio output looking for changes in noise, interference, ringing or oscillation.

 

[fpitas]

Now, if that guy can actually hear a difference, I would:
Without moving any of the audio equipment or cables and not touching any of the controls or setting.
Using a battery powered sensitive True RMS voltmeter and a battery powered 50 MHz O-scope.
Examine the systems audio output looking for changes in noise, interference, ringing or oscillation.

Oh yes. If that was actually real, it would be a game changer.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Frankly, if Amir (for example) can measure no difference, yet some guy somewhere can reliably hear a difference, that kind of rewrites the laws of physics.

Don't wait on that. Could be a few centuries. Rewriting the laws of physics is very hard. I know I have tried and it always turns out I was wrong. Like when I was sure my electrons were flowing backwards. I started doing tests to prove it. Seems, I had dyslexic electrons! Well, that plus I was wrong AGAIN! The guys a DARPA and a few of the National Labs did tell me to stick with it, a broken clock will be right every twelve hours. Somehow I don't think they were complimenting me........ I made them laugh a lot, usually right after telling me about the clock. Bunch of happy guys!

 

[fpitas]

Don't wait on that. Could be a few centuries.

I'm not holding my breath.

 

[fpitas]

It's sad our music will always be mundane and staid, never transported to an alternate world where veils are lifted, and unicorns spread pixie dust. *sigh*

 

[Spkrdctr]

It's sad our music will always be mundane and staid, never transported to an alternate world where veils are lifted, and unicorns spread pixie dust. *sigh*

I'm all for the Pixie Dust but I'm sure it is illegal and the DEA would come after me. I would get caught with it all over my face in trying to lift the veils.

 

[Speedskater]

Oh yes. If that was actually real, it would be a game changer.

News flash, yes it can happen, not often but it can happen.
But it's not just about the cable, it's about:
amp>>cable>>speaker and the environment that they are in.
Cyril Bateman(RIP), Jim Brown and Bob Cordell have all written about some of the problems.
Jim Brown wrote:
The most fundamental cause of interference to other systems is the fact that the wiring for those
systems, both inside and outside the box, are antennas.
We may call them "patch cables" or "speaker cables" or "video cables" or "Ethernet cables," or printed circuit traces,
but Mother Nature knows that they are antennas! And Mother Nature always wins the argument.

 

[Bernard23]

Don't wait on that. Could be a few centuries. Rewriting the laws of physics is very hard. I know I have tried and it always turns out I was wrong. Like when I was sure my electrons were flowing backwards. I started doing tests to prove it. Seems, I had dyslexic electrons! Well, that plus I was wrong AGAIN! The guys a DARPA and a few of the National Labs did tell me to stick with it, a broken clock will be right every twelve hours. Somehow I don't think they were complimenting me........ I made them laugh a lot, usually right after telling me about the clock. Bunch of happy guys!

I like this story (I work for one of those national labs though not in a specific related technical expert role). It's a good illustration perhaps that testing / measuring is only one step in determining the ground truth. Knowledge and understanding of the characteristics of the instrument or sensor that is deriving your measurement data is critical to being able to appropriately interpret the data.
I applaud Amir and those that contribute, and I can see the value in the data they present, but none of it that I see comes with any uncertainty calculation, let alone calibration reference etc. I guess where there public standard test methods used then we can gave confidence in the results of course, adding that the standard is appropriate in the first place (many of them are not and are constantly being updated and rewritten as we develop new knowledge and capability). My point is, there is much more to measurement than the process of using an instrument, as all engineers will know.