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Loudness compression, loudness wars.. What exactly it is and why is it happening?

Sal1950

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maty

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That is, if you do not listen to vinyl (or 24/192, 24/96 rips) in excellent condition.

In some you can hear some small noises with headphones.
 

Dro

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The problem with vinyl data is that it is most likely garbage. Unless you have confirmation that vinyl has a more dynamic master, assume it is the same master as digital, with some extra processing to put it on vinyl. Consider this example:
CD: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/159197
Vinyl: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/159193
Wow, 5 dB more!

I have a lossless CD version and MP3s of the vinyl rip:

acdce3fb2a8b93adbf9f832862542957.png

Well, probably not quite 5 dB more dynamic range, because most of the peaks of the vinyl fall far short of 0 dBFS. But definitely more, right? Let's look at a drum transient:
974cfbfb02af6a92d68db31a3b7a2a72.png

The vinyl master has the same clipping, except it got tilted somehow. You basically get the same waveform for the CD version when you run it through a highpass and match the gain with the vinyl version:
6b3590cba1ebff37b356212148d6d2a3.png


Both versions use the same master. processing it for vinyl artificially bloated up the DR without making it sound any better. In fact, it being vinyl makes it sound worse than the CD version.
 

maty

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If things are done properly, vinyl, SACD, CD ... have to have practically the same DR values.
 

maty

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An example, just now:

André Previn, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra - Holst - The Planets Op. 32 (1986), Vinyl, TELARC, Germany

Gustav Holst - Andre Previn, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra* - The Planets Op. 32 (1986, Vinyl) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR13 -0.18 dB -17.35 dB A1 I. Mars, The Bringer Of War
DR15 -13.88 dB -36.30 dB A2 II. Venus, The Bringer Of Peace
DR14 -9.02 dB -29.80 dB A3 III. Mercury, The Winged Messenger
DR13 -1.02 dB -20.53 dB A4 IV. Jupiter, The Bringer Of Jollity
DR16 -3.10 dB -26.02 dB B1 V. Saturn, The Bringer Of Old Age
DR15 -0.16 dB -20.76 dB B2 VI. Uranus, The Magician
DR11 -18.56 dB -36.61 dB B3 VII. Neptune, The Mystic
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 7
Official DR value: DR14


CD, 2006

Gustav Holst, Andre Previn, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra - Holst: The Planets - Amazon.com Music


dr.loudness-war.info Previn - The Planets

-> Gustav Holst: The Planets (24/96, ProStudioMasters)
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/162913

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR11 -1.54 dB -16.62 dB 1-01 The Planets, Op. 32_ I. Mars, the Bringer of War.wav
DR15 -9.20 dB -30.72 dB 1-02 The Planets, Op. 32_ II. Venus, the Bringer of Peace.wav
DR14 -4.75 dB -26.70 dB 1-03 The Planets, Op. 32_ III. Mercury, the Winged Messenger.wav
DR12 -0.19 dB -17.61 dB 1-04 The Planets, Op. 32_ IV. Jupiter, the Bringer of Jollity.wav
DR14 -0.95 dB -22.51 dB 1-05 The Planets, Op. 32_ V. Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age.wav
DR12 -0.80 dB -18.32 dB 1-06 The Planets, Op. 32_ VI. Uranus, the Magician.wav
DR12 -18.56 dB -34.73 dB 1-07 The Planets, Op. 32_ VII. Neptune, the Mystic.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 7
Official DR value: DR13
 

Sal1950

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André Previn, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra - Holst - The Planets Op. 32 (1986), Vinyl, TELARC, Germany
First you subtract the surface noise level off the bottom, and then from the top subtract
snap, crackle, pop1.jpg

Whats left in between is the real DR ;)
 

eliash

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Yea but the highest peaks of the dr are ticks, pops, and other assorted noise. :p

Not from my perspective, using an audio analyser like tc-electronic´s Clarity M for instant loudness and true-peak display, most high level events are related to actual intented instrument action. That finding may be focused on finally mastered material, unprocessed live could be different...even vinyl behaves like this, with the exception of some very loud and audible cracks...
 

maty

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Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (1973), Vinyl x2, Mercury UMC, Bob Ludwig Remaster 2014, Europe

Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (2014, Trifold, 180 Gramm, Vinyl) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR13 -0.83 dB -17.47 dB A1 Funeral For A Friend-Love Lies Bleeding
DR13 -3.45 dB -18.80 dB A2 Candle In The Wind
DR13 -2.16 dB -17.90 dB A3 Bennie And The Jets
DR13 -1.83 dB -17.99 dB B1 Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
DR11 -3.52 dB -18.37 dB B2 This Song Has No Title
DR13 -0.60 dB -16.39 dB B3 Grey Seal
DR14 -1.56 dB -17.69 dB B4 Jamaica Jerk-off
DR16 -0.70 dB -19.04 dB B5 I've Seen That Movie Too
DR15 -2.60 dB -20.00 dB C1 Sweet Painted Lady
DR12 -2.05 dB -17.88 dB C2 The Ballad Of Danny Bailey (1909-1934)
DR14 -0.49 dB -16.45 dB C3 Dirty Little Girl
DR14 -0.84 dB -17.53 dB C4 All The Girls Love Alice
DR12 -1.39 dB -14.99 dB D1 Your Sister Can't Twist (But She Can Rock 'N' Roll)
DR13 -0.46 dB -15.37 dB D2 Saturday Night's Alright (For Fighting)
DR13 -3.22 dB -18.83 dB D3 Roy Rogers
DR13 -2.87 dB -17.98 dB D4 Social Disease
DR13 -2.89 dB -19.07 dB D5 Harmony
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 17
Official DR value: DR13


CD x2, 2014

Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road [2 LP][Remastered] - Amazon.com Music


Album list - Dynamic Range Database
smile.gif
smile.gif
smile.gif
smile.gif


-> Remastered 2014: DR9
 
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maty

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Queen - News Of The World (1977), Vinyl, EMI, 1st Pressing, UK

Queen - News Of The World (1977, Gatefold, Vinyl) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR11 -1.32 dB -15.34 dB A1 We Will Rock You
DR11 -0.91 dB -15.28 dB A2 We Are The Champions
DR10 -0.58 dB -12.99 dB A3 Sheer Heart Attack
DR12 -1.53 dB -19.12 dB A4 All Dead, All Dead
DR12 -1.68 dB -16.30 dB A5 Spread Your Wings
DR13 -0.67 dB -16.46 dB A6 Fight From The Inside
DR12 -2.14 dB -16.71 dB B1 Get Down, Make Love
DR12 -0.79 dB -14.29 dB B2 Sleeping On The Sidewalk
DR15 -0.76 dB -17.97 dB B3 Who Needs You
DR11 -1.07 dB -14.91 dB B4 It's Late
DR11 -5.65 dB -20.24 dB B5 My Melancholy Blues
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 11
Official DR value: DR12


CD, year? link says: 2011-07-05?

- News of the World by QUEEN (2011-07-05) - Amazon.com Music


Album list - Dynamic Range Database :) :) :) :)

1998 - 2015 DR8
 
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AnalogSteph

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If you find that this year could do with some more positive surprises, well, here is one:

The Beths ‎– Jump Rope Gazers (2020)
R-15604905-1594399339-4161.jpeg.jpg


My pleb spec Amazon MP3 version measures as follows:

Code:
DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11      -1.41 dB   -14.12 dB      2:42 01-I'm Not Getting Excited
DR11      -2.08 dB   -14.17 dB      3:34 02-Dying to Believe
DR10      -1.40 dB   -13.22 dB      5:12 03-Jump Rope Gazers
DR11      -1.72 dB   -14.13 dB      4:07 04-Acrid
DR11      -1.33 dB   -14.41 dB      4:16 05-Do You Want Me Now
DR11      -3.15 dB   -16.43 dB      3:40 06-Out of Sight
DR10      -1.91 dB   -14.12 dB      4:11 07-Don't Go Away
DR11      -1.57 dB   -14.55 dB      2:53 08-Mars, the God of War
DR10      -2.20 dB   -15.52 dB      3:51 09-You Are a Beam of Light
DR10      -2.26 dB   -14.03 dB      4:24 10-Just Shy of Sure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  10
Official DR value: DR11

I haven't seen 1990 era mastering levels on anything resembling new and trendy in a good long while. (The mix sure sounds clean and transparent.) While the long-term trend in loudness has been slowly down since about 2012, I'm still seeing plenty of DR6ish releases, or around DR8 when a more moderate approach is chosen. Maybe being from New Zealand is beneficial in this case for once. I've been seeing the most releases with super high levels in very competitive music markets, like Japan (absolutely notorious) and Australia.
 

Soundstage

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@Thomas savage
Currently streaming Metallica on Tidal.
Looks like they have updated their remasters, all the classical albums (from Kill'em All to AJFA + Garage Inc) are showing a dynamic range of 13-14.
Last time I checked it was below 7...
This made my evening :)
 

maty

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If things are done well, the DR must be the same (or almost) regardless of the medium. Such is the case of Bob Dylan's latest work.

Bob Dylan - Rough And Rowdy Ways (2020), Vinyl x2, Columbia, Europe
Bob Dylan - Rough And Rowdy Ways (2020, 180g, Vinyl) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR15 -3.28 dB -22.26 dB 4:36 01-I Contain Multitudes
DR14 -0.53 dB -17.16 dB 5:59 02-False Prophet
DR14 -2.46 dB -19.91 dB 6:37 03-My Own Version Of You
DR15 -0.53 dB -20.34 dB 6:32 04-I've Made Up My Mind To Give Myself To You
DR14 -3.86 dB -19.62 dB 4:12 05-Black Rider
DR13 -1.27 dB -16.02 dB 4:08 06-Goodbye Jimmy Reed
DR12 -5.85 dB -20.86 dB 4:29 07-Mother Of Muses
DR15 -0.53 dB -18.91 dB 7:22 08-Crossing The Rubicon
DR15 -2.90 dB -20.39 dB 9:31 09-Key West (Philosopher Pirate)
DR15 -0.53 dB -18.50 dB 16:51 10-Murder Most Foul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 10
Official DR value: DR14


CD, 2020

https://www.amazon.com/Rough-Rowdy-W...dp/B0884BK38T/


http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Bob+Dylan&album=Rough+And+Rowdy+Ways

Bob Dylan - Rough And Rowdy Ways - DR - loudness war.png
 

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Frank Zappa - Over-Nite Sensation (1973), Vinyl, Pallas 180 gr 2013, Germany

The Mothers - Over-Nite Sensation (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -1.78 dB -17.41 dB 3:58 01-Camarillo Brillo
DR12 -0.62 dB -16.59 dB 3:34 02-I'm The Slime
DR13 0.00 dB -15.41 dB 2:57 03-Dirty Love
DR12 0.00 dB -13.70 dB 6:09 04-Fifty-Fifty
DR12 0.00 dB -14.29 dB 5:09 05-Zomby Woof
DR12 -1.68 dB -16.09 dB 6:02 06-Dinah-Moe Humm
DR14 -2.06 dB -18.57 dB 6:33 07-Montana
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 7
Official DR value: DR13


CD, 2012 DR 10

Over-Nite Sensation by Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention on Amazon Music - Amazon.com

dr.loudness-war.info Frank Zappa - Over-Nite Sensation

The 2012 remasters of the Zappa catalogue do sound very good though, I prefer them to the originals. Worth the loss of DR.
 

Kristian Paul

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I worked as a mastering engineer at Future Disc in Hollywood for 25 years. Level wars were my biggest struggle. But if handled artfully, one can produce a master which is full in level, loud enough to compete, but isn’t slammed. For starters you need a client who gets it. More than once I referred clients elsewhere because I didn’t want my reputation attached to what they wanted me to do, which was slammed levels without a budget/time to do it right. I see waveforms posted here. Ever seen one that looks like a brick? That’s what any serious mastering engineer is up against. Here are some of the basics of how I worked.

Let’s say the client is Raphael Saadiq. He brings in a one inch two track analog tape master. He also brings his own machine (Ampex ATR 102). I have the 1” heads, etc., for the same machine, but 1” tape stretches azimuth and head bump to the limit. Using the same machine that recorded the tapes is the way to go. The first thing I did was to pull all the record cards. No bias current screaming around quiets the machine.

As I reproduced the master tape, I had two things happening at once. One of my two Pacific Microsonics model two codecs was creating a flat copy at 24x96 as an archive for the record label. The other model two was downstream, digitizing step one of my process. The playback of the analog master was going through the analog gear as I saw fit. My options were several pieces made by Manley, all vacuum tube. A compressor, soft limiter, and the amazing Massive Passive EQ. I also had at my disposal the well-known vintage Sontec Eq and one made by Focusrite. I would pick and choose my chain of gear to enhance, even punch up the sound, while being careful to give myself something I did not have to undo. That analog processed audio went through the second Pacific Microsonics unit and into the Sonic Studio workstation at 88.2x24 bits. Why 88.2? Integer relation to the final 44.1 CD master. In between the PM ADC and the workstation, I had a DBX digital limiter. I used it gently, I called it giving the music a haircut. But I got some level in a transparent way.

Once locked into the digital domain, I had a huge advantage, a Daniel Weiss 24/96(88.2) digital console. The dynamics processors and eq in this device were, at the time, unequaled. By the time I was finished I had a master with sufficient RMS level to compete, but the waveform didn’t look like a brick.

My point? If you have the luxury of a great chain of gear, or if your working with a variety of emulations on a laptop, massage the music with a little processing here, and a little more there. Using one tool to do the job is not the recipe for success.
 

eliash

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I worked as a mastering engineer at Future Disc in Hollywood for 25 years. Level wars were my biggest struggle. But if handled artfully, one can produce a master which is full in level, loud enough to compete, but isn’t slammed. For starters you need a client who gets it. More than once I referred clients elsewhere because I didn’t want my reputation attached to what they wanted me to do, which was slammed levels without a budget/time to do it right. I see waveforms posted here. Ever seen one that looks like a brick? That’s what any serious mastering engineer is up against. Here are some of the basics of how I worked.

Let’s say the client is Raphael Saadiq. He brings in a one inch two track analog tape master. He also brings his own machine (Ampex ATR 102). I have the 1” heads, etc., for the same machine, but 1” tape stretches azimuth and head bump to the limit. Using the same machine that recorded the tapes is the way to go. The first thing I did was to pull all the record cards. No bias current screaming around quiets the machine.

As I reproduced the master tape, I had two things happening at once. One of my two Pacific Microsonics model two codecs was creating a flat copy at 24x96 as an archive for the record label. The other model two was downstream, digitizing step one of my process. The playback of the analog master was going through the analog gear as I saw fit. My options were several pieces made by Manley, all vacuum tube. A compressor, soft limiter, and the amazing Massive Passive EQ. I also had at my disposal the well-known vintage Sontec Eq and one made by Focusrite. I would pick and choose my chain of gear to enhance, even punch up the sound, while being careful to give myself something I did not have to undo. That analog processed audio went through the second Pacific Microsonics unit and into the Sonic Studio workstation at 88.2x24 bits. Why 88.2? Integer relation to the final 44.1 CD master. In between the PM ADC and the workstation, I had a DBX digital limiter. I used it gently, I called it giving the music a haircut. But I got some level in a transparent way.

Once locked into the digital domain, I had a huge advantage, a Daniel Weiss 24/96(88.2) digital console. The dynamics processors and eq in this device were, at the time, unequaled. By the time I was finished I had a master with sufficient RMS level to compete, but the waveform didn’t look like a brick.

My point? If you have the luxury of a great chain of gear, or if your working with a variety of emulations on a laptop, massage the music with a little processing here, and a little more there. Using one tool to do the job is not the recipe for success.

Sounds reasonable - I think MFSL works that way too, when comparing some old originals with their releases. Something one can buy in...
 

Kristian Paul

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As to the question, "why?" In popular music, and increasingly in jazz and now even classical music idiot producers and record company A&R people decided somewhere along the way that a louder CD was a more competitive CD. They forgot there's this thing called a volume control. If they hadn't gone in this direction in the first place the listening public wouldn't want it or expect it.

Did you ever hear about the A&R guy who got hit by a train? Tragically he never heard it coming...

I had the pleasure to work with Kevin Gray for about ten years at Future Disc Mastering. I'm retired now, but Kevin opened his own studio. He's in a position to refuse to slam levels. He won't do it, and if someone demands it he sends them walking. Kevin commands my respect.
 

MRC01

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Fortunately, it's rare in classical music. But I do occasionally find it. When I do, I make sure to return the album or download to get my money back, and let the record company know why.
 

levimax

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I thought maybe the loudness wars were dyeing out but apparently not ...... I have been buying early CD's from the 80's and 90's of music I love and they sound great and are dirt cheap. I would not be surprised if these early CD's eventually become as popular as original vinyl is now. When I go looking for CD's at thrift shops it seems like the majority are some type of "greatest hits / compilations" and I seldom find any popular older original albums. Luckily even the original albums on CD are cheap on Ebay and Discogs ..... at least for now.
 

Sal1950

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As to the question, "why?" In popular music, and increasingly in jazz and now even classical music idiot producers and record company A&R people decided somewhere along the way that a louder CD was a more competitive CD.
My question has always been WHY did they have to crush everyone's music? There has always been compressors and limiters available to anyone that wanted/needed it. I remember people complaining to the local FM radio stations (rock) back in the 80s and 90s about all the heavy handed compression going on. If the labels wanted limited DR for their cassette tapes and radio stations, they had the tools, hell they've been compressing masters designed for vinyl use forever to stay within it's technical limits.. Now we had this miracle of digital recording in our hands and they had to go fu-ck it up for everyone so their releases could sound louder (better to the laymen) on low quality sources. CD and later HiRez recordings, were designed to bring TRUE HIGH FIDELITY to those who wanted it, instead we get the time and effort of recording the best sounding, widest DR master, and put on a 1950s, drag a rock thru a ditch medium., I ask you how a-s backwards is that?
This whole industry is being lead by rip-off artists who build and sell $1000 a foot power cords and color painted ammo primers as reproduction improvement devices. Just buy our record clamp and then tune it's sound with different colored magik dots..
It's no wonder our industry is in the toilet, they got unknown thousands of people believing that it's worth putting a fortune into these retro devices while they sit by and let them make a mess of the musical product that's being put on a SOTA medium. :mad:
Of course this is only my personal opinion, and YMMV.
dots_censored.jpg
 
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