• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Loudness compression, loudness wars.. What exactly it is and why is it happening?

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
There are also many, or there, that did not differentiate between MP3 at 320kbps and FLAC 16/44 or between 16/44 and 24/96.

I do not feel like arguing. It is very easy to verify it by oneself.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
But what does this have to do with loudness compression ?
And with vinyl DR ratings (which is rather pointless) yet, that is the only thing you post about concerning the albums.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dro

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
In the end it is the same, of the ability of the audio system to reproduce better or worse.

I am capable in both my systems. In others I have not been able, and that some were very expensive.

- The end -
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
1992 edition

[Spanish] https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/loreena-mckennitt-the-visit-1992/

1by1-Loreena-McKennitt-The-Visit.png
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Because this is my experience. I have same recordings in different formats. Or the same concert or opera by different directors, orchestras or years.

Sometimes CD or SACD have the better sound and many others is the vinyl. Usually commercial music sound better in vinyl. Unfortunately, the best current technology is wasted.
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Just now, https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/music/6958-playing-listening-post5798335.html

Maria Callas, Carlo Bergonzi, Tito Gobbi - Puccini - Tosca (1965), Vinyl x2, EMI, Germany

Giacomo Puccini ' Maria Callas ' Carlo Bergonzi ' Tito Gobbi ' Orchestre De La Societe Des Concerts Du Conservatoire ' Georges Pretre - Tosca (Vinyl, LP) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR11 -0.61 dB -16.70 dB sideA
DR11 -0.69 dB -16.43 dB sideB
DR11 -0.64 dB -16.42 dB sideC
DR11 -1.06 dB -17.46 dB sideD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 4
Official DR value: DR11

The SACD remaster from 2012 sounds worse!!! But it has DR12. I said, it is a shame how the best current technology is wasted.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,521
Likes
37,050
You guys do know the DR numbers of LP are around 3 or 4 db better due reasons other than actual compression compared to CD. Not taking up for squashed CDs as most recent ones are an abomination. Just pointimg out that if a CD of something has DR 12 and LP DR15 or DR16 they are probably effectively equivalent. One of the issues is low bass is summed and usually reduced for LP which makes quieter portions seem lower in level vs the same thing on CD. Giving a small false boost to the DR number.
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
I often compare the same recording in different media and I disagree. All in all, it is best to verify it for yourself.
 
Last edited:

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Original vinyl (1979) and SACD 2003 remastered with same DR but the vinyl is more addictive, magic sound. Other times it is the SACD, Japanese, the one that best sounds, but this is not the case.

Bob Dylan - Slow Train Coming (1979), Vinyl, Columbia, US

Bob Dylan - Slow Train Coming (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

81CTUspHGAL._SL1500_.jpg


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR14 -2.52 dB -18.60 dB 5:21 A1-Gotta Serve Somebody
DR14 -1.63 dB -17.99 dB 6:29 A2-Precious Angel
DR14 -0.98 dB -20.10 dB 5:06 A3-I Believe in You
DR13 -0.97 dB -16.91 dB 5:56 A4-Slow Train
DR14 -2.63 dB -18.19 dB 5:25 B1-Gonna Change My Way of Thinking
DR14 -1.60 dB -18.63 dB 3:51 B2-Do Right to Me Baby (Do Unto Others)
DR13 -3.21 dB -18.45 dB 5:27 B3- When You Gonna Wake Up
DR16 -3.32 dB -21.80 dB 4:24 B4-Man Gave Names to All the Animals
DR15 -2.09 dB -22.16 dB 4:28 B5-When He Returns
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR14


CD, 2004 (Remastered)

Bob Dylan - Slow Train Coming - Amazon.com Music


http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/year?artist=Bob+Dylan&album=Slow+Train+Coming
 

eliash

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
407
Likes
209
Location
Bavaria, near lake Ammersee
He may have used the same "master", but certainly not the same re-mastering.

Again, I repeat; the canopy has been clipped.

One (+hundreds) of examples ...

Same relative music timeframe; notice the severe limiting/clipping, absent on the LP.
right channel, hey joe, re-mastered CD.
View attachment 13607
right channel, hey joe, re-mastered LP rip.
View attachment 13608

As you suggested, take ~3dB off the re-mastered CD, and re-calc the DR values:

version: re-master / re-master(-3dB)
right channel: 0.00 / -3.04 dB
Avg RMS: -12.40 / -9.35 dB
DR channel: 7.39 / -7.39 dB

Everything changes by about 3dB, except the DR value, which remains identical!



Nope, been ripping for decade; it's not commonly known, and if it is, it's mistaken!

With a fine turntable, DR values will remain relatively the same ... as I've witnessed countless times over, with numerous rips.



Yes I can if the evidence points in that direction. In this case; I can safely state the "re-mastering" is NOT the same (even if the same master was used). The so-called vinyl process, in this case, is not in question, its Marino's choice of slamming the CD that's questionable.

I agree here (as I did some investment in a hardware based audio analyser - tc-electronic´s Clarity s -), while looking at a 2-digit number of old and new LPs and CDs or digital files. There is a strong correlation between perceived dynamics and the according LUFS (Peak to Loudness) reading. Specificly, being a jazz fan, comparing several ECM records on vinyl and digital showed almost exactly the same readings per record side (both converted from analog to SPDIF to drive the Clarity meter). My understanding from ECM´s philosophy is to enable similar listening experience on both media and this is also reflected in my listening experience, directly switching between the vinyl record playing and level adjusted digital.
 
Last edited:

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want (2017), Vinyl x2, Columbia, US

Roger Waters - Is This The Life We Really Want? (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

81snEIACy0L._SL1416_.jpg


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -8.70 dB -24.60 dB 1:40 A1 When We Were Young
DR12 -1.96 dB -17.43 dB 4:28 A2 Deja Vu
DR12 -2.15 dB -18.78 dB 4:15 A3 The Last Refugee
DR10 -1.33 dB -15.88 dB 6:49 B1 Picture That
DR11 -1.59 dB -18.90 dB 4:59 B2 Broken Bones
DR13 -2.80 dB -19.87 dB 6:07 C1 Is This The Life We Really Want
DR11 -2.46 dB -16.80 dB 5:31 C2 Bird In A Gale
DR11 -3.91 dB -18.10 dB 6:09 C3 The Most Beautiful Girl In The World
DR10 -2.08 dB -14.95 dB 5:17 D1 Smell The Roses
DR12 -3.46 dB -18.79 dB 4:57 D2 Wait For Her
DR13 -5.35 dB -21.53 dB 1:06 D3 Oceans Apart
DR12 -2.86 dB -19.23 dB 3:16 D4 A Part Of Me Died
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR12


CD, 2017 DR7 vade retro satana

Roger Waters - Is This The Life We Really Want? - Amazon.com Music

dr.loudness-war.info Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want
 

eliash

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
407
Likes
209
Location
Bavaria, near lake Ammersee
Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want (2017), Vinyl x2, Columbia, US

Roger Waters - Is This The Life We Really Want? (Vinyl, LP, Album) | Discogs

81snEIACy0L._SL1416_.jpg


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -8.70 dB -24.60 dB 1:40 A1 When We Were Young
DR12 -1.96 dB -17.43 dB 4:28 A2 Deja Vu
DR12 -2.15 dB -18.78 dB 4:15 A3 The Last Refugee
DR10 -1.33 dB -15.88 dB 6:49 B1 Picture That
DR11 -1.59 dB -18.90 dB 4:59 B2 Broken Bones
DR13 -2.80 dB -19.87 dB 6:07 C1 Is This The Life We Really Want
DR11 -2.46 dB -16.80 dB 5:31 C2 Bird In A Gale
DR11 -3.91 dB -18.10 dB 6:09 C3 The Most Beautiful Girl In The World
DR10 -2.08 dB -14.95 dB 5:17 D1 Smell The Roses
DR12 -3.46 dB -18.79 dB 4:57 D2 Wait For Her
DR13 -5.35 dB -21.53 dB 1:06 D3 Oceans Apart
DR12 -2.86 dB -19.23 dB 3:16 D4 A Part Of Me Died
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR12


CD, 2017 DR7 vade retro satana

Roger Waters - Is This The Life We Really Want? - Amazon.com Music

dr.loudness-war.info Roger Waters - Is This the Life We Really Want

Yes, this is the downside...and a good reason to invest in vinyl...
 

eliash

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
407
Likes
209
Location
Bavaria, near lake Ammersee
Just compared "Tord Gustavsen´s" brilliant "The Other Side" on Vinyl and digital.
Peak to Loudness (measured according to EBU R128; i.e. LUFS or LKFS)
Vinyl: 18.9/19.3 (side 1/2)
Digital: 16.6/16.8 (same titles as above)
This is audible, even when listening with a day in between...and ECM does different dynamic compression on different media too!
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,596
Likes
3,160
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
Today, maty auditions presents: The odd case of the vinyl with lower DR that sounds a lot better than the XRCD.

Van Cliburn, Kondrashin - Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto No 1 (1958), Vinyl, Half-speed Remastered, RCA Red Seal .5 Series 1981, US

Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - Van Cliburn, Kiril Kondrashin - Concerto No. 1 (Vinyl, LP, Album, Stereo) | Discogs



DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR10 -0.05 dB -14.25 dB 20:37 01-I. Allegro Non Troppo E Molto Maestoso; Allegro Con Spirito
DR14 -1.26 dB -20.73 dB 7:01 02-II. Andante Simplice Prestissimo; Tempo I
DR10 -0.09 dB -13.50 dB 6:49 03-III. Allegro Con Fuoco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 3
Official DR value: DR11


CD, 1993

Sergey Rachmaninov, Pyotr Il'yich Tchaikovsky, Kiril Kondrashin, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, RCA Victor Orchestra, RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra, Van Cliburn - Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No.1 / Rachmaninoff: Concerto No.2 - Amazon.com Music


Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 (Van Cliburn 1958 recording - Wikipedia)
The Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.1 was the first recording of Van Cliburn in 1958 for RCA Victor. It won Cliburn a Grammy and was the first classical recording to go platinum, that is to sell more than a million copies. The RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra was conducted by Kiril Kondrashin who at Cliburn's request had been allowed to leave Russia.



Van Cliburn, Kondrashin - Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto No 1 (1958), XRCD, JVC 2003, Japan

Trustysound: Products: Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No 1 Cliburn XRCD



DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 0.00 dB -18.55 dB 20:51 01-Allegro non troppo e molto maetoso
DR15 -1.19 dB -25.61 dB 7:04 02-Andantino simplice
DR13 -0.56 dB -17.66 dB 6:55 03-Allegro con fuoco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 3
Official DR value: DR14


Before listening to this vinyl, the one that best sounded to me was the XRCD. Despite its minor dynamics, the vinyl (half-speed) is several steps above!
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,422
Likes
4,029
Location
Pacific Northwest
I have that same 1st record: an original limited edition 1/2 speed master pressing of the Cliburn Tchiakovsky PC #1. It measures exactly the same: 10, 14, 10, and 11 overall.
Scan Dir: /media/mclement/MUSIC/music/all/Tchaikovsky-Piano Concerto 1-Cliburn-Kondrashin
01-Track 1.flac: DR 10
02-Track 2.flac: DR 14
03-Track 3.flac: DR 10
DR = 11
+1 for consistency!

I have many other classic RCA Victors. They all have a similar dynamic compression profile: the quietest parts are boosted a bit, probably due to the limited dynamic range of recordings in the 50s and 60s. It's tastefully done, not excessive, though I prefer other recordings that have no dynamic compression as the wider dynamics sound more natural.
 
Top Bottom