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Lost all respect for Doug Self

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audio2design

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I found this little ditty in one of his website,

Audio signals are AC. Cables cannot be directional any more than 2 + 2 can equal 5. Anyone prepared to believe this nonsense won't be capable of designing amplifiers, so there seems no point in further comment. (Doug Self)


Obviously in this post, Doug is saying the often repeated, but ridiculously incorrect statement that because audio signals are AC, that cables cannot be directional. Now for those with a half decent understanding of electronics and cables, you understand that a cable is essentially a network of resistors and inductors in series, with capacitors in parallel, with some parasitic additional inductance, resistance and capacitance. Since no cable is perfectly manufactured, those values will vary along the length of the cable, especially capacitance and inductance. Like any other two-port transfer function with capacitors and inductors, at AC frequencies, the input-output function is not the same as the output-input function, especially when source and load impedance is taken into account.

Simple fact, that excluding leakage current, the only time a cable is perfectly non directional is at DC. No this is not a statement of audibility. At audio frequencies, the two port function would be close enough to be the same in both direction, but, that is not what Doug's statement says. It says because the signals are AC, direction does not matter. That is wrong.


Now, I messaged Doug, expecting a "ya, that was not the most accurate statement". Nope, he doubled down on his statement claiming cables are symmetrical, which they absolutely are not as anyone who has done any good RF or even TDR work. I pointed this out, he just responded "you are wrong" and went off in a huff.


I have read much of his stuff, good, not exceptional, and remember thinking some conclusions / statements gave me pause. After this exchange, I have lost all respect for him, and fumbling such a simple concept, or at least being unable to admit a mistake, makes me question a lot more.
 
I'm afraid he is right - at audio frequencies at least, cables are not 'directional' unless I'm totally missing your logic. The exception to this would be in the case of shielding in a balanced cable being connected at only one end.
 
I'm with posts #2-#6 :D
 
Doug is right, and AC has nothing to do with it. Directional wire violates superposition, get over it.

An audio cable as a passive two-port network, if badly designed, may represent itself a non-reciprocal linear network, which may attenuate certain frequencies on one direction more than on the other.

This does not violate the superposition theorem in either direction. Cables marked with directionality arrow, must have some added passive components at one of the terminal ends.

For example, some Audioquest interconnects, have a series inductance at their sending end and a parallel capacitor at their receiving end, forming a LPF network, which Audioquest claim to remove RF noise... This is an example of a snake-oil directional cable...
 
An audio cable as a passive two-port network, if badly designed, may represent itself a non-reciprocal linear network, which may attenuate certain frequencies on one direction more than on the other.

This does not violate the superposition theorem in either direction. Cables marked with directionality arrow, must have some added passive components at one of the terminal ends.

For example, some Audioquest interconnects, have a series inductance at their sending end and a parallel capacitor at their receiving end, forming a LPF network, which Audioquest claim to remove RF noise... This is an example of a snake-oil directional cable...
Yes, of course that would be true in the case of added components at one end of the cable, which is intended to form a passive network. The wild card with using such cables is that the cable doesn't know what the output impedance (or value of buildout resistor) is contained in the output of the sending device (I'm ignoring the input impedance of the receiving device since that should be quite high in a good design), so the results of the network would be, um, random. :rolleyes:
 
Lost all self respect for @audio2design

Are you saying that a 10 ft length of monoprice 12ga speaker cable will have different LCR measurements when reversed, and at increments that we might almost care about? C'mon man.
But, but, the writing on the jacket of the cable will be reversed, and thus un-readable to the easily confused. o_O
 
An audio cable as a passive two-port network, if badly designed, may represent itself a non-reciprocal linear network, which may attenuate certain frequencies on one direction more than on the other.



At least one of you get it. Wow. Never knew so many people lacked fundamental knowledge. Superposition does not come into it It's simple fundamental circuit. No cable is perfectly manufactured or symmetrical. Have any of you people not done any serious RF design? Have none of you used a time domain reflectometry of any sophistication on a complex network connection. Yes a cable presents different reflections in different directions. No cable is perfectly symmetrical EXCEPT AT DC.


By claiming it violates superposition you are already assuming the cable is perfectly symmetrical. It is not. Imagine a cable. It is two simple conductors. The total cable is 1 meter long. The two conductors start 0.1 meters apart at each end. They almost touch at 0.8 meters, but by 1 meter they are again 0.1 meters apart. That cable will not behave the same in either direction except at DC.
 
Now, I messaged Doug, expecting a "ya, that was not the most accurate statement". Nope, he doubled down on his statement claiming cables are symmetrical, which they absolutely are not as anyone who has done any good RF or even TDR work. I pointed this out, he just responded "you are wrong" and went off in a huff.
Do you have any measurements you can share in this regard? I am interested in variation you are getting in one direct vs the other.
 
Lost all self respect for @audio2design

Are you saying that a 10 ft length of monoprice 12ga speaker cable will have different LCR measurements when reversed, and at increments that we might almost care about? C'mon man.



When was a cable only about LCR? You will note I added a comment about audibility. I am under no illusions it matters for audio. However, cables are NOT lacking direction because the signals are AC. They are directional because of AC.
 
By claiming it violates superposition you are already assuming the cable is perfectly symmetrical. It is not. Imagine a cable. It is two simple conductors. The total cable is 1 meter long. The two conductors start 0.1 meters apart at each end. They almost touch at 0.8 meters, but by 1 meter they are again 0.1 meters apart. That cable will not behave the same in either direction except at DC.

.......I guess......if I squint just right and imagine nano-level fly fart quantum effects, and the phase of the moon, and the mood of my wife......you might have a point. :eek:
 
The total cable is 1 meter long. The two conductors start 0.1 meters apart at each end. They almost touch at 0.8 meters, but by 1 meter they are again 0.1 meters apart.
Cables are apart 10 centimeters??? What kind of cable is this? What are the typical variations in cable production? Let's not use examples that don't apply to reallity.
 
Do you have any measurements you can share in this regard? I am interested in variation you are getting in one direct vs the other.


Easily shown doing time domain reflectometry even with a scope. I am totally being pedantic, but how can we be respected as technical experts when we can't prosletytize wrong statements. Cables are much more complex than simple LCR networks.
 
I am under no illusions it matters for audio..

Then why are you wasting my time and posting this on a forum called Audio Science Review?????
 
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