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Looks like FiiO just dropped the K17 R2R.

All of these R2R DACs showing up in my news feed.

I just dusted off two of mine and measured them…

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Hmm… Looks like a relay or cap hasn’t aged well in the Proceed after sitting so long. I also wonder if the precision resistor arrays have aged and drifted a bit in these units increasing the distortion. The technology isn’t really low distortion though. Doesn’t matter to most since it’s all below audibly, and I think people pay a premium just to have the R2R ‘Rube Goldberg Apparatus’ chugging away on the music data.
 
Doesn't look age-related. It is more like an architectural choice or issue, if you will. We must consider what was considered decent for the price and engineering tier at the time of release — these two are actually contemporaries, not different eras. Proceed still looks like the much better DAC to my eyes. I don't know about the caps, but the resistor value shifting doesn't happen selectively in any meaningful way; it is not very noticeable at worst, and since the overall ratio is preserved, it won't have the kind of effect you are talking about.
 
Doesn't look age-related. It is more like an architectural choice or issue, if you will. We must consider what was considered decent for the price and engineering tier at the time of release — these two are actually contemporaries, not different eras.
They are both from the early ‘90s. Not contemporary. Different chipsets.
Proceed still looks like the much better DAC to my eyes. I don't know about the caps,
You can see the mains hum. More likely relay, but possibly a capacitor going bad.

but the resistor value shifting doesn't happen selectively in any meaningful way; it is not very noticeable at worst, and since the overall ratio is preserved, it won't have the kind of effect you are talking about.
The resistors’ matching determines the practical lower limit of distortion. They do drift as they age, even if not powered up. I know monolithic arrays on the same die are fairly resistant to most aging mechanisms like thermal.

Discrete arrays drift quite a bit, can be a large problem for some applications (not talking audio).

Both are susceptible to radiation induced drift like cosmic rays. I can imagine this may not be a problem for an audio devices, but I’m not sure.
 
I like the front panel of the K17. Built like a President CB radio. Got style.

But the prices and the general R2R hype.. different topic.
That is an abstruse analogy for many here, I suspect. Not for me, though, of course! ;) :facepalm:

My friend Scott had one, a Washington, and a big-butt Avanti beam antenna (specifically, a Moonraker 4, I think), back in the day. Pretty formidable assembly. Oh, and an amplified (TUG-8 or 9) Astatic D-104 mic. Of course. :)

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Hmm #1: I wonder if he still has it? Scott and his family are still good friends, but the topic hasn't come up recently. :p
Hmm #2: Never owned one, but, at this late date, there is one of these in my basement. :facepalm:

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source: https://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/flipbook/1980_radioshack_catalog.html

In my defense, it was given to me! :rolleyes:
Not in the same league as the President Washington.
 
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Some feckin eejit made my guitar out of two bits of wood...
It has zero effect on tone (unless you wear a tin foil hat), 'cos it's electric, but I'm sure with HiFi it's paramount (and not just for WAF) :)
My guitar does vary according to temperature and humidity, so I have to set it up 4 times a year - is it the same with expensive HiFi?
I feel sorry for the trees. There must a better way. Maybe Pearson? They only use one small log.
 
Agreed, elsewhere I also mentioned the effects of resistor tolerance. But resistance drift over the years is still very small, as far as I know. When I check, I see a value of around 50ppm after three months of continuous use. And this will happen to all the resistors on the same substrate. I am not very sure if this will cause any discernible difference. As for the hum, even a slight ground loop might be responsible for that much noise.
 
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Mini K17 R2R pro review:

I’ve now spent enough time with the FiiO K17 R2R to form a solid impression, and overall I’m extremely impressed. This is one of those products that manages to feel ambitious without becoming overly complicated. It combines a discrete R2R DAC, a powerful headphone amplifier, a very good linear power supply, extensive digital connectivity, streaming capability, PEQ, and a genuinely useful touchscreen interface into a compact desktop chassis.

My primary use is at a desktop with the Unique Melody MEST MkII and the original Focal Clear. I also own an Audio-GD R7HE MK3 in my main two-channel system, so I already have a strong appreciation for what a well-executed R2R DAC can bring to the table. I did not buy the K17 R2R expecting it to replace the R7HE MK3. I wanted a compact, high-quality desktop solution that could give me some of that natural R2R character while also functioning as a complete headphone and IEM system.

In that role, the K17 R2R has exceeded my expectations.

The first thing that stands out is how substantial the K17 R2R feels. The chassis is extremely solid, the knobs have a quality feel, and the overall industrial design is much more premium than I expected at this price point.

The front display is not just decorative. It is genuinely useful for source selection, gain, volume, playback information, settings, and navigating the unit without constantly reaching for an app.

The physical design also works very well on a desk. It has enough presence to feel like a serious component without taking over the workspace.

Heat was one of my concerns before purchasing, particularly because the K17 platform uses a linear power supply and a Class-AB headphone amplifier. In actual use, the K17 R2R has been much less concerning thermally than I expected. It becomes warm, but mine has not become excessively hot in normal operation. With reasonable clearance around the chassis, I have no concern using it for long listening sessions.

The DAC section is really the reason I chose the R2R version over the standard K17.

The character is immediately recognizable as R2R, but thankfully FiiO has not exaggerated it. This is not an overly soft, syrupy, dark, or artificially warm DAC.

The strongest qualities are tonal density, texture, smoothness, and spatial dimensionality.

Vocals have body and presence without sounding pushed forward. Acoustic instruments have a convincing sense of texture and decay. Piano in particular sounds very natural, with enough weight in the attack and enough harmonic information afterward to avoid that overly sharp, almost etched presentation some delta-sigma DACs can produce.

There is also a very pleasing continuity to the sound. Notes do not feel isolated from one another. The presentation is cohesive.

At the same time, the K17 R2R still resolves plenty of detail. It does not strike me as a detail-chasing DAC, but I do not feel that meaningful information is being obscured either.

The better description is that detail is integrated into the music rather than spotlighted.

The K17 R2R creates a surprisingly dimensional presentation for an all-in-one desktop unit.

The stage is not artificially huge, but there is very good front-to-back layering and convincing placement of instruments within the image. I notice this particularly with the Focal Clear, where the K17 R2R adds a little more depth and body without sacrificing the Clear’s excellent imaging precision.

The presentation tends to favor depth and dimensionality over exaggerated width.

That works well for me.

If someone is specifically looking for the widest, most analytical, hyper-separated presentation possible, there may be other DACs that lean harder in that direction.

The K17 R2R instead creates a more natural three-dimensional image.

Bass quality is excellent.

The low end has very good weight, texture, and extension. It is not bloated or artificially elevated, but there is a sense of physical substance that I associate with good R2R implementations.

Bass guitar sounds textured rather than merely deep. Kick drums have both impact and body. Electronic bass has enough extension to feel substantial without losing definition.

With the Focal Clear, the combination is particularly enjoyable because the Clear already has excellent punch and dynamics. The K17 R2R does not soften that characteristic; it gives the bass a little more density and natural weight.

The midrange is probably my favorite aspect of the K17 R2R.

Vocals sound very natural, especially male vocals and lower-register female vocals. There is good harmonic richness without an obvious coloration.

Guitars, strings, and piano have a more realistic sense of body than I typically hear from inexpensive all-in-one DAC/amp units.

The K17 R2R is not a thick-sounding unit, but it does avoid sounding thin.

That distinction matters.

Treble is smooth, extended, and refined.

I have not experienced any unpleasant glare or sharpness with either the MEST MkII or the Focal Clear.

That does not mean the treble is rolled off. Cymbals still have plenty of energy and air. String overtones are clearly audible. Spatial cues remain intact.

The difference is that the treble is presented without excessive edge emphasis.

This is one of the reasons I prefer the R2R version for extended listening.

Dynamics are very good.

The K17 R2R has enough macrodynamic impact to make the Focal Clear sound appropriately lively, and smaller changes in volume and expression are also well preserved.

I would not describe it as the most explosive amplifier I have ever heard, but it certainly does not sound flat or compressed.

With easier-to-drive headphones like the Clear, there is ample headroom.

The MEST MkII is a very revealing IEM and can expose noise, poor gain structure, and overly aggressive treble quickly.

The K17 R2R has worked extremely well with it.

Using low gain, the background is extremely quiet. I do not hear objectionable hiss during normal use. Volume adjustment is usable and predictable, and I do not feel like I am fighting the amplifier to find a reasonable listening level.

Sonically, the pairing is excellent.

The MEST MkII already has very strong spatial presentation and detail retrieval. The K17 R2R adds a little more body and natural texture without undermining those strengths.

Vocals gain density, bass sounds fuller, and the treble remains smooth.

This pairing is one of the main reasons I am so satisfied with the K17 R2R.

The original Focal Clear may be an even better match.

The Clear is dynamic, immediate, easy to drive, and already has excellent tonal balance. The K17 R2R complements those qualities beautifully.

There is enough warmth and density to prevent the Clear from ever sounding dry, but not enough to dull its transient response.

The result is lively, textured, full-bodied, and very easy to listen to for long periods.

If I owned only the Clear and wanted one compact desktop unit, the K17 R2R would be very easy to recommend.

One of my concerns before buying was whether an amplifier this powerful would be appropriate for sensitive IEMs.

In practice, the low-gain setting works well.

The K17 R2R has a very low residual noise floor, and with the MEST MkII I am getting the quiet background I hoped for.

For full-size headphones, there is obviously far more power available than the Clear requires.

That versatility is one of the K17 R2R’s biggest strengths.

The power-supply implementation deserves mention.

FiiO uses a substantial linear supply and extensive local regulation rather than relying on a basic external switching supply.

I cannot claim to isolate the audible contribution of the power supply by itself, but the unit sounds exceptionally quiet, stable, and controlled.

There is none of the grain or hardness I sometimes hear in less sophisticated all-in-one products.

Whether one attributes that to the R2R DAC, power architecture, analog stage, or all of them together, the end result is excellent.

The K17 R2R is far more feature-rich than most traditional desktop DAC/amps.

The touchscreen interface is useful, the source switching is straightforward, and having PEQ available directly in the device is a meaningful advantage.

Connectivity is extensive enough for almost any desktop setup.

I primarily value the K17 R2R as a DAC/headphone amplifier rather than as a streamer, but it is nice knowing the additional functionality is there.

There is a temptation with products like this for the manufacturer to add so many features that basic usability suffers.

So far, I have not found that to be the case.

This is probably the one area where I would still describe the K17 R2R as a relatively new product.

FiiO has already shown that it actively updates the K17 platform, and I expect continued firmware refinement.

I have not experienced anything serious enough to affect my opinion of the unit, but buyers who are extremely sensitive to firmware maturity should understand that this is still a newer model.

Personally, I would rather have the K17 R2R’s sound and accept the possibility of occasional software refinement than choose the standard K17 solely because it has been on the market longer.

I considered both versions.

For someone who wants maximum neutrality, a more clinical presentation, and the most technically direct sound, the standard K17 may still be the better choice.

I chose the R2R because I wanted something more organic and natural for long listening sessions.

I am glad I did.

The K17 R2R gives me the tonal density, texture, and dimensionality I enjoy from R2R without becoming too warm or too soft.

The Audio-GD R7HE MK3 in my main system is still the more ambitious DAC.

It has greater scale, refinement, spatial depth, and overall effortlessness.

I did not expect the K17 R2R to equal it.

What has surprised me is how much of the general R2R appeal the FiiO delivers at a dramatically lower price while also including a powerful headphone amplifier, display, PEQ, streaming functions, and extensive connectivity.

The K17 R2R does not replace my R7HE MK3.

It also does not need to.

As a desktop all-in-one, it makes a tremendous amount of sense.

This may be the strongest part of the product.

It is difficult to look at the K17 R2R purely as a DAC, because you are also getting a substantial headphone amplifier, linear power supply, touchscreen interface, network capability, PEQ, balanced outputs, multiple digital inputs, and a very high-quality chassis.

There are standalone DACs that cost more and do considerably less.

There are standalone headphone amplifiers that cost more and do considerably less.

The fact that FiiO has combined all of this into one unit without making it sound compromised is impressive.

The K17 R2R is not perfect, and I would not pretend that it replaces every high-end DAC and headphone amplifier.

What it does exceptionally well is combine genuinely high-quality sound with exceptional functionality and value.

The sound is natural, textured, smooth, dimensional, and engaging.

The amplifier has enough power for demanding headphones while remaining quiet enough for sensitive IEMs.

The build quality is excellent.

The interface is genuinely useful.

The linear power supply and analog stage give the unit a level of refinement that I did not expect from an all-in-one product at this price.

For my use with the Unique Melody MEST MkII and Focal Clear, the K17 R2R has been an outstanding fit.

I bought it looking for a compact desktop solution that would give me some of the qualities I enjoy from my much larger Audio-GD R2R DAC without turning my desk into another full-size audio rack.

That is exactly what it has done.

For anyone considering a high-quality desktop DAC/headphone amplifier with an R2R presentation, the K17 R2R deserves serious consideration.

Highly recommended.
 
Agreed, elsewhere I also mentioned the effects of resistor tolerance. But resistance drift over the years is still very small, as far as I know. When I check, I see a value of around 50ppm after three months of continuous use. And this will happen to all the resistors on the same substrate. I am not very sure if this will cause any discernible difference. As for the hum, even a slight ground loop might be responsible for that much noise.
Not sure if you were replying to me, if so try the 'reply-too' button. :cool:

Monolithic R-2R are certainly sensitive to cosmic rays, ionized particles, etc. - the impact damage affects individual resistor elements causing a loss in ratio matching. Different resistor materials and various monolithic integration schemes have different sensitivities to this phenomena. Laser-trimming the resistors actually affects the susceptibility to this type of damage, despite the benefit of precise matching at t=0. The size of the actual resistor element also affects the susceptibility. Operating in outer space or areas with ionizing radiation or neutrons at the right energy dramatically accelerate the issue. Resistors aren't the only thing that has this degradation. And for sure the effect occurs in our homes, in my case for over 30 years of bombardment.
 
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