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Looking to upgrade closed headphones

stanroz

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I have an ipad pro with Apple’s USB- C adapter (USA version). At this point I don’t want to deal with special amplifiers or DACs.

I currently have AKG K371 and I enjoy them, but suppose I wanted to take it up a notch or two? I am willing to go up to a $1000.

The problem is that in many reviews it’s not clear whether a discrete amp is required.

For me, neutral sound quality, comfort and passive noise isolation are what’s important.

Thank you in advance for everyone’s input…
 

_thelaughingman

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Dan Clark Audio Aeon Rt closed are $499 and very good sound signature, plus they are planar magnetic drivers and easily drivable with the USB dongle. If you need them for mobility than the Dan Clark's will do a good job, but if you're listening at the desk add more power to them can help drive them better.
 
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stanroz

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ahh! very good! I was wondering about those and was very interested but different reviews were sort of ambiguous on the power requirements… thank you, I will check them out.
 
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stanroz

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I just heard from Dan Clark Customer Service… bad news is that they say their headphones require dedicated amp. They recommended stuff from chord or ibasso, but that’s not for me, at least not now. So Aeon headphones is not an option.

So if anyone else has other recommendations for closed end headphones that would go well with Apple usb-c adapter, I’ll be happy to consider.
 

radix

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I just heard from Dan Clark Customer Service… bad news is that they say their headphones require dedicated amp. They recommended stuff from chord or ibasso, but that’s not for me, at least not now. So Aeon headphones is not an option.

So if anyone else has other recommendations for closed end headphones that would go well with Apple usb-c adapter, I’ll be happy to consider.

I don't find the Aeon closed RT that hard to drive. But I use a Topping dac/amp.

A user (Overall_Falcon_8526), who has used the RT with the apple dongle, on this reddit seems to think the apple dongle is just fine with the Aeon RT.

The K371 is 32-ohm. The Aeon RT is 13-ohm. As long as you're not cranked up towards max volume on the dongle, I don't think you'll hear much difference from the K371.
 

DVDdoug

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You can do a LOT with EQ. When it comes to sound quality the main difference between headphones is frequency response, and that can be adjusted (to a large extent) with EQ. And EQ is FREE when done in software.

And there is very little correlation between sound quality and cost, and a lot of it comes down to personal preference so you may not have to spend more money, although the K371 is the least expensive headphone that's "ASR recommended without EQ".

At this point I don’t want to deal with special amplifiers or DACs.
What are you using now? Amplifiers are mostly about amplifying (getting louder), but some "headphone outputs" do have "impedance issues" that make the frequency response change depending on how the particular headphone's impedance changes with frequency.

For me, neutral sound quality
What does that mean to you? Less bass? The K371's are known for slightly-boosted bass.

I think that varies from person-to-person.

and passive noise isolation
I have a pair of K371's and they seem to have a fair amount of isolation. But I only have one other pair of closed headphones and I haven't really compared them.
 

ZolaIII

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The Apple USB dongle DAC will only be sufficient for up to 32~40 Ohm's dynamic driver's. Either way choosing the lo impedance hi LSP (which it can drive but you will probably want higher SNR) or lo impedance planars closed back it won't really be sufficient.
Won't give suggestion until you clarify what's "natural sounding" means for you.
 
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stanroz

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You can do a LOT with EQ. When it comes to sound quality the main difference between headphones is frequency response, and that can be adjusted (to a large extent) with EQ. And EQ is FREE when done in software.

And there is very little correlation between sound quality and cost, and a lot of it comes down to personal preference so you may not have to spend more money, although the K371 is the least expensive headphone that's "ASR recommended without EQ".

What are you using now? Amplifiers are mostly about amplifying (getting louder), but some "headphone outputs" do have "impedance issues" that make the frequency response change depending on how the particular headphone's impedance changes with frequency.

What does that mean to you? Less bass? The K371's are known for slightly-boosted bass.

I think that varies from person-to-person.

I have a pair of K371's and they seem to have a fair amount of isolation. But I only have one other pair of closed headphones and I haven't really compared them.
 
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stanroz

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Thank you for all your feedback.

To answer all your questions,

I have not even begun with equalization… that will come later.

I use booth apple usb-c dongle and their lightning dongle.

AKG headphones have excellent features but there is room for improvement in all my main three areas of concern: sound quality, comfort and noise isolation.

As for what sounds natural to me? It hard to communicate because I don’t even know much of audiophile nomenclature such as ‘bright’ or ‘warm’.

With the headphones as with the rest of my home theater i am very much into experiencing’artistic intent’ and this is what i mean by accurate or neutral.

Whether it’s a movie director or a musical artist, they have a certain vision as to how they would want the consumer to experience their work.

Hence my tv is calibrated as close to cinematic standards as possible. Something like this must exist with headphones as well, or am I deluding myself?

Once again, thanks for any suggestions you can give,
 

radix

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Oratory has a large set of EQs for different headphones. They provide EQs to a few different references. I tend to like the Harman reference, though maybe with a bit more bass.


Some EQ software, like SoundSource (for the mac) has a dropdown box you can select your headphones from. Those are a decent starting place, but I usually end up writing my own EQ file (just a simple text file).

If I listen to headphone via Roon, I use the Roon EQ to the streamer to my headphone dac/amp.
 
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stanroz

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I don’t know the first thing about proper equalization. I know i play all music and movies on the ipad pro, so I would need to find something that works in IOS/IpadOS. But that is putting the cart before the horse. My first priority is to finalize my choice of the closed headphones for both music AND movies. Then I want to choose which music service to subscribe. Only after that will I get into equalization….

Right now I just want the optimal choice for headphones given the constraints I outlined.

Thanks
 
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stanroz

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The Apple USB dongle DAC will only be sufficient for up to 32~40 Ohm's dynamic driver's. Either way choosing the lo impedance hi LSP (which it can drive but you will probably want higher SNR) or lo impedance planars closed back it won't really be sufficient.
Won't give suggestion until you clarify what's "natural sounding" means for you.
Hi Zolalll, I don’t know if you saw my other post but to me “natural sounding” means “as accurate as possible according to the artist’s intent”

thanks!
 

ZolaIII

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Hi Zolalll, I don’t know if you saw my other post but to me “natural sounding” means “as accurate as possible according to the artist’s intent”

thanks!
Play with EQ-ing before buying anything a lot. What you have so far (K371) is little rough on edges Harman without EQ-ing. After you are done playing with EQ-ing (including more or less bass to it and trying other preference curves) based on what ever you find liking the most try to find as similar sounding one's without EQ-ing (by mesured response curve and listening to them) afterwards take care about portable dongle DAC/AMP.
 
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stanroz

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the reason I am looking to upgrade akg 371 is… it’s very weird but I find their fit inconsistent. Every time I take them off and put them on I need to be very precise and deliberate as to fitting them properly… otherwise I’ve heard them sound hollow or subpar in other ways…also I think I can do a little better on noise isolation. And finally I’ve been reading about how some of the higher end closed headphones have a sound stage that is far bigger than closed end headphones are supposed to have.

I don’t think those areas will be improved by playing around with equalization. Sorry… I should have mentioned all this sooner… my apologies.
 

aandres_gm

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Hi Zolalll, I don’t know if you saw my other post but to me “natural sounding” means “as accurate as possible according to the artist’s intent”

thanks!
That’s hard to judge, as we don’t exactly know what kind of gear was used during the recording and mastering process. As such, knowing exactly what the recording sounded like to the artist’s ear before it left the studio is impossible.

The Aeon Closed X (basically the same headphone as the Aeon RT) are still very good and I’m able to drive them with my lightning-3.5mm dongle without an issue.
 
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stanroz

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That’s hard to judge, as we don’t exactly know what kind of gear was used during the recording and mastering process. As such, knowing exactly what the recording sounded like to the artist’s ear before it left the studio is impossible.

The Aeon Closed X (basically the same headphone as the Aeon RT) are still very good and I’m able to drive them with my lightning-3.5mm dongle without an issue.
that’s great news as I just got hold of aeon 2 closed to try. thanks for your input.
 

radix

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Hi Zolalll, I don’t know if you saw my other post but to me “natural sounding” means “as accurate as possible according to the artist’s intent”

thanks!

artist's intent is hard. How much double-think are you willing to engage in? Did the artist EQ for the flat studio monitors? Did they EQ for the studio mains? Did they EQ for a car? Did they EQ for what they think is a typical home stereo? Did they EQ expecting the listener to pump up the bass or listen loud? Did they expect the listener to listen quietly?

A more tractable case is "accurately reproduce what is on the media." That would beg for a flat response on all your gear. This sort of setup is objective and could be measured and reported.

A simpler case is "what pleases me." That would beg for EQ to what you think sounds good. This sort of setup, while it could be measured and reported, is subjective.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Unless you get enjoyment out of striving for #2, I think most people would be happier with #3.
 
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stanroz

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artist's intent is hard. How much double-think are you willing to engage in? Did the artist EQ for the flat studio monitors? Did they EQ for the studio mains? Did they EQ for a car? Did they EQ for what they think is a typical home stereo? Did they EQ expecting the listener to pump up the bass or listen loud? Did they expect the listener to listen quietly?

A more tractable case is "accurately reproduce what is on the media." That would beg for a flat response on all your gear. This sort of setup is objective and could be measured and reported.

A simpler case is "what pleases me." That would beg for EQ to what you think sounds good. This sort of setup, while it could be measured and reported, is subjective.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Unless you get enjoyment out of striving for #2, I think most people would be happier with #3.
I don’t know enough on music production and what goes on in artist’s and recording engineer’s mind. I do know more about film than music and this where I drew my comparisons which might very well be faulty.

In movies, the notion of ‘artistic intent’ has become such a big thing that filmmakers are lobbying for something called a filmmaker mode in all TVs. The way TVs are set up in showrooms or the standard mode that most people use, I can tell you for certain that it’s not the way your favorite movie director wants you to see his movie. My TV is calibrated to more cinematic standards, and within those standards there is certainly room for variation, but while initially the picture on my tv might seem more subdued it’s actually far more satisfying. This by the way why George Lucas founded THX company to set the proper presentation standards for movie theaters and home theaters.

Ok sorry for the long digression, but I just assumed that something similar exists in music field. And even if it didn’t much of my headphone listening is of movies so we’re back to that….

This is what intuitively drew me to objective measurement oriented audio review sites such as this one… because everyone can use a flowery language to describe what they’re feeling but to back that up with something more substantial is a different trick altogether….

Anyway, sorry to go on and on…. and if I am totally off base, please someone correct me…
 

radix

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I don’t know enough on music production and what goes on in artist’s and recording engineer’s mind. I do know more about film than music and this where I drew my comparisons which might very well be faulty.

In movies, the notion of ‘artistic intent’ has become such a big thing that filmmakers are lobbying for something called a filmmaker mode in all TVs. The way TVs are set up in showrooms or the standard mode that most people use, I can tell you for certain that it’s not the way your favorite movie director wants you to see his movie. My TV is calibrated to more cinematic standards, and within those standards there is certainly room for variation, but while initially the picture on my tv might seem more subdued it’s actually far more satisfying. This by the way why George Lucas founded THX company to set the proper presentation standards for movie theaters and home theaters.

Ok sorry for the long digression, but I just assumed that something similar exists in music field. And even if it didn’t much of my headphone listening is of movies so we’re back to that….

This is what intuitively drew me to objective measurement oriented audio review sites such as this one… because everyone can use a flowery language to describe what they’re feeling but to back that up with something more substantial is a different trick altogether….

Anyway, sorry to go on and on…. and if I am totally off base, please someone correct me…
Here's my layman's understanding of the situation.

For sound, there are various target preference curves (house curves), like the Harman. If you assume the studio is EQ'd for a standard curve and the artist intended it to be played back on a similar curve, you can EQ your gear for that same curve.

I'm not sure of anything like THX for plain old stereo, but would be interested if there was something.

For headphones, I don't think there's any standard. There are a few different response curves (harman, gras, usound, etc.) that one can try to EQ to. The Oratory measurements try to get each headphone model as close to whichever curve they chose (usually harman, sometimes one of the others). Headphone curves are much more EQ'd than speaker curves. I assume this is because of the physiological differences of hearing sound vs having it attached to your noggin.

So I think for headphones, you would want to figure out which house curve you like and then pick headphones that can best match that curve (with or without EQ).
 

ADU

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Hi Zolalll, I don’t know if you saw my other post but to me “natural sounding” means “as accurate as possible according to the artist’s intent”

thanks!

Can 'o worms officially opened! :D

Your questions are not off base at all, stanroz. As my homey radix points out though, the situation regarding standards in music production is.... complicated. :) And you will probably get as many different opinions on it as there are experts on the subject.

One of the most respected authorities in the field though on this subject is Dr. Floyd Toole, who you may perhaps be familiar with, if you've spent any significant time in the audio discussions on home theater forums (like AVS Forum for example). And one of his principle contributions to the field was the development of the "spinorama", which is a new system for more accurately measuring and characterizing the sound of loudspeakers, for both music and also multi-channel audio setups, including home theaters.

This video is a little over an hour long. But it is well worth the time to watch and listen to for just about anyone interested in the subject of accurate sound reproduction. In it, Dr. Toole lays out many of the challenges associated with this in home (and other) setups. And also lays out some methods to improve this process, including his and Harman's new system of speaker measurement (the spinorama system I mentioned above). I've personally watched this video over a dozen times, and there are still new things I can take away from it, each time I watch...


Dr. Toole's book on Sound Reproduction... is also considered by many to be one of the essential references or guides for the correct setup of speakers and other audio gear. It goes into many of the same subjects discussed in the above video, but I believe it also drills down even deeper on things like room acoustics and treatments, sub-woofers, etc.. By most accounts, it is well worth seeking out. Though it can probably get somewhat technical, and may be a bit over a newbie's head at first.

It took me a long time, for example, to grasp the concept of a speaker's directivity/dispersion. And why that is so crucial to a speaker's response when placed in a room, versus an echo-free measurement chamber. If you really want to better understand what a "neutral" or "accurate" sound is on a pair of headphones though, then I think you first have to understand what that means for a pair of stereo speakers in a semi-reflective room. Since most audio content (well, the mainstream stuff anyway) is still ideally mastered and produced for that kind of a listening environment. Once you have a firmer grasp on that, then it becomes a little bit easier to begin to grasp some of the challenges in trying to achieve something along a similar lines with a pair of headphones.

Dr. Sean Olive and some others folks at Harman have also been on the forefront of trying to expand this pioneering work on speakers to other devices, including headphones. And one of the first and most important products of those efforts was the development of a new target response curve for headphones (often referred to simply as the "Harman curve" or "Harman target").

Their current target was developed using a somewhat old and now a bit outdated ear simulator though, known as the 711 system, which is only accurate across a limited range of the audible spectrum. So there are now some attempts under way, both at Harman and elsewhere, to try to bring that work more up to date and into the 21st century, for potential use on some newer and potentially better measurement systems such as the new HBK 5128 system. If you're interested, you'll find threads (and often vigorous debates) on all of this in various topics on the ASR headphone forums.
 
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