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Looking for new IEMS

Palpatine

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I am currently using the Etymotic ER4XR, I really like their isolation and their FR but the sound stage and "neutrality" can be annoying to me sometimes. I assume it is because of their deep insertion that causes them to have to have little to no sound stage. I am not a fan of most IEMS as I find they generally have bloated bass and shrill highs.

Any suggestions on a nice pair of iems?
 

maxxevv

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That's a tough one. I have tried the ER4XR for a brief 10mins as a good friend has a pair.

Haven't tried any iems in the above $500/- tiers but practically all of iems I have tried have some form of elevated bass or treble and mostly both in fact. As that's generally the market preference, and they have to push numbers in this price bracket and lower.

But I need to highlight that most of the so called 'sound stage' that we perceive is from the treble and upper mid micro sound cues. So the 'flat' FR might be exactly why you perceive the Ety's to have little to no sound stage. It might a pursuit of a unicorn for that combination of flat and sound stage.

I haven't tried one that fits exactly what you need, but I like the relatively (compared to most budget IEMS) shallower "V" FR curve of the KZ AS10 and CCA C16. Insertion for both is deep enough for good isolation but no where need as deep as the Ety's. According to some reviewers, the KZ AS16 has a relatively tamer/ more refined treble than the CCA C16.

Can't really say if you will like them, but that's just what I have tried here to date.
 

Vincent Kars

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Maybe trying the foam eartips?
I do think them horrible to use but maybe your experience is different.

If you don't like the neutrality, try some EQ.
I have the older ER4P and use EQ to lower the midrange slightly to get a bit more bass.
 

JJB70

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I am a convert to the ER4SR, I really don't mind the deep insertion design but then again I spent quite a while wearing similar industrial hearing protection. I like the very flat turning and absence of either boosted treble or bass. So much so in fact that I just sold my Beyerdynamic T5P 2 headphones. After getting used to the Etymotics I noticed an awful screechiness that I had become accustomed to before.
 

Soniclife

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But I need to highlight that most of the so called 'sound stage' that we perceive is from the treble and upper mid micro sound cues.
Not in my opinion, you need a great foundation of bass for a good sense of space. No idea if there is any research on this.
 

Ratatoskr

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I prefer custom IEMs rather than the universals. I can wear a good fitting pair of custom acrylic IEMs all day no discomfort. Right now I am listening to Perfect Seal Decas which give me about 85% of the sound stage of my HD800S. The Decas do not have the soundstage depth of the HD800S nor the ultimate imaging but are close. The plus for IEMs is you do not need expensive amplification to get the best sound quality from them. The tube amp I use to listen to my HD800S with costs 10 times what I paid for the tube hybrid amp I use for the Decas.
 

DanWiggins

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Not in my opinion, you need a great foundation of bass for a good sense of space. No idea if there is any research on this.
There is, quite a bit from the Dolby guys (I'll dig some out). Bass/lower frequencies give the sense of the size of the space we're in, and the mid/treble clues position objects within that space. Collapse the size of the space, and all the objects move right in to you.
 

Tks

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You can forget about soundstage aspirations in IEM's

Soundstage is a barely defined attribute, with folks attempting to define it in some sort of way. The current fledgling understanding is basically your ear shape will have an effect on the outer ear (the pinna) and how sound interacts with it. Since IEM's are inserted into the ear canal, this sensation is all but lost. But this is only part of the physical phenomena.

Many will praise the HD800 for "wide soundstage". Yeah well naturally considering the size of the cavity (and other things I will get to shortly). When you have such a massive space, and drivers far removed from the ear, you can essentially get better "soundstage" than many headphones. But also it helps HD800's have elevated treble spikes that contributes to also "air", but MOST importantly the third factor that has gained them this reputation is the comparatively low THD specs of the headphone itself.

As for other aspects and my personal belief about soundstage.. It's mostly comprised of quality of recording (not just using great gear, but properly spaced and proper work from the recording engineer), setting of recording, editing/mastering/post processing. I would wager my life that more people than not, can take any modern headphone (or IEM), and listen to a recording of Amber Rubarth's "Sessions from the 17th Ward" album, and will praise their feeling of soundstage. This has nothing to do with the listening device at this point, and everything to do with the qualify of recording (binaural) and setting (church hall). I highly urge you to listen half the tracks if you find the time, and come back and see if you still feel your IEM's can't produce any soundstage.

The last portion is the editing/post-processing involved. The first of which, being channel panning (self explanitory). The second, DSP and audio effects can be added to induce the simulation of soundstage. You can literally take the most "un-soundstagey" audio sample (that being a mono recording) and simply adding in some reverb effects, and you instantly have more "soundstage". This is the sort of thing that is being pioneered by Virtual Reality companies currently (collecting sound samples, and coming up with new ways of emulating what people sometimes describe as soundstage).

In conclusion, because no one actually has a firm reproducable grasp of soundstage in the hardware realm we can't in good faith make solid recomendations when people seek this sort of factor from a hardware perspective. My firm deductive reasoning would be just having high quality drivers with great performance, and a large enough cavity where your ears don't touch any parts inside as much as you can. Outside of this, I haven't seen any sort of research to suggest any parralell with what some people have claimed are "good soundstaging headphones" and such. Opposite to an example I raised earlier.. you could in fact get HD800's and it wouldn't matter much for soundstage if you turn on some of the highly compressed modern Pop genre atrocities we call "music". You'll see your soundstage won't scale much regardless how good your headphones are.

So.. in second conclusion. Forget about searching for "soundstaging IEM's" from recommendations, instead try it out yourself, and pray you will placebo yourself into thinking you hear soundstage from an IEM. If you want more feeling of soundstage.. seek out well recorded music, and if you MUST get IEM's, then seek out ones with low THD, and good FR consistency. Outside of that, it's up to you to DSP your own soundstage somehow.

As a resource on this, you can check out this site, as they're the only ones seemingly willing to seriously share and seriously persue this phenomena in some way.
 
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fulffy512

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I use the ER4SR, i never understood the no soundstage criticism the ER4 get's. It's ER4S/SR feels pretty wide and 3D to me with my music without being forced like allot overhyped IEM's do. I find it funny how every IEM that touts a wide soundstage is just mostly faked by coloured tuning in the FR.
 

pwjazz

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I use the ER4SR, i never understood the no soundstage criticism the ER4 get's. It's ER4S/SR feels pretty wide and 3D to me with my music without being forced like allot overhyped IEM's do. I find it funny how every IEM that touts a wide soundstage is just mostly faked by coloured tuning in the FR.

Compared to vented IEMs that don't seal as well, I find that Etys sound very closed/not open simply because there's no external sounds mixing with the audio from the earphones. Perhaps some people interpret this as a difference in soundstage?
 

fulffy512

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Compared to vented IEMs that don't seal as well, I find that Etys sound very closed/not open simply because there's no external sounds mixing with the audio from the earphones. Perhaps some people interpret this as a difference in soundstage?

Maybe the Ety house sound matches there HRTF or they get from the recording, In the third case the brain fills in the gaps.
 

Tks

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I would say your ER4SR are simply isolating noise very well externally, on top of being decently measuring with respect to THD. Take those two aspects and the type of music you listen to (I am going to assume well recorded or simply post processing with decent amount of channel panning/reverb and such), and that's why you are experiencing good soundstage. Otherwise IEM's with a decent FR should all technically not "soundstage" at all since there is no interaction with the pinna portion of our ear. But I am of the conviction you simply don't need that to get the feeling of soundstage, you simply can get it with any well recorded/produced music.

I've said it countless places. Take half the tracks from Amber Rubarth's - Sessions from the 17th Ward album (try Tundra first), and you'll see just how well any sort of IEM and basically any headphone suddenly -seemingly by magic- is now capable of "soundstage".
 

fulffy512

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I would say your ER4SR are simply isolating noise very well externally, on top of being decently measuring with respect to THD. Take those two aspects and the type of music you listen to (I am going to assume well recorded or simply post processing with decent amount of channel panning/reverb and such), and that's why you are experiencing good soundstage. Otherwise IEM's with a decent FR should all technically not "soundstage" at all since there is no interaction with the pinna portion of our ear. But I am of the conviction you simply don't need that to get the feeling of soundstage, you simply can get it with any well recorded/produced music.

I've said it countless places. Take half the tracks from Amber Rubarth's - Sessions from the 17th Ward album (try Tundra first), and you'll see just how well any sort of IEM and basically any headphone suddenly -seemingly by magic- is now capable of "soundstage".


Allot of the metal, industrial, ambient and more i listen to give various sized spheres soundstage like AA's - Sessions from the 17th Ward. I brought this up at reddit as to why the ER4SR imaging can out do the HD650.

There more to gaining SS with going the HD800 route which allot audiophiles ignore. Even the campfire audio Andromeda uses FR tweaks to give the idea of big soundstage at the cost of accuracy/flatness.

As for THD the ER4SR is 0.5% which is better than the XR/PT since i believe that enough to distortion free headphone wise at loud volume. That <0.2% under 90db for low to semi high which is why i don't get the ER2*SE/XR hype?.

I have DSP on foorbar that uses binaural to mimic I'm listening to loudspeaker monitors that sound great with tweaks.
 
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