Looking for Desktop external DAC under $400

[kemmler3D]

Glad to hear the ZD3 is working out well, and belated welcome to ASR!

I will try to restate the gist of what @HalSF was getting at, which is that based on the measurements we have of the M4 headphone output, there is no reason to think it would have bad sound quality. This is not to say it definitely didn't in your instance, something could have gone wrong... but the data we have suggests it should sound the same as any other DAC.

You will find it annoyingly common here for people to suggest placebo effect as a likely cause for things. But, unfortunately, it's super common for people to hear things for reasons other than the actual performance of the gear. This doesn't mean they didn't hear it, but the cause of what they heard is often misattributed. It's happened to me, and it's probably happened to you.

This is why you can find people saying their ethernet cables have a sound, and so on. They absolutely do not have a sound, that's not how ethernet works, let alone digital audio, but try telling them that after they heard it...

 

[davybyrne]

That’s exactly what you did. After I pointed out that the ASR SINAD measurements did not support your claim that the Apple DAC is “excellent”, you’re now backpedaling as fast as you can. It’s quite ironic that I’m the one who used objective, ASR measurements, not you.

Yes, you quoted the fact that Amir measured the Apple DAC to have a SINAD of 99. And yes, you were correct to point out that that puts it into the "Fair" not the "Excellent" category.

However, you seem to be implying that this categorization supports your claim about the "thin, scratchy sound" of the Apple DAC. It doesn't. A SINAD of 99 is well below the threshold of audibility and in a blind test cannot be differentiated from the Fosi ZD3 with its SINAD of 117.

However, when you make a broad, sweeping claim—the burden of proof is on you. My claim was limited to my personal experience. Your claim was more sweeping—a flat assertion that the Apple DAC was uniformly excellent—not just for you, but also for me. That was the entire thrust of your original reply—stop pretending otherwise. It’s just another example of the ridiculous arrogance that repeatedly pops up on this board.

I'm not quite sure what it was, but clearly something HalSF really bothered you. As someone with no skin in this game and having read the whole thread, the aggrieved tone in your responses is honestly kind of mystifying. HalSF didn't say anything controversial or insulting. He just didn't. He pointed out what every other respondent to this thread has: your claims about the DAC aren't supported by any objective measurement. That's it.

Unless both your M4 Mini and the Apple DAC are actually defective, those DACs are not the reason you hadn't ever heard the yawn in "I'm Only Sleeping". And your claim that "this $200 DAC provides amazing detail" is true only insofar as it has been measured to have a SINAD below the threshold of audibility and therefore is transparent to the listener. In a blind test, you'd hear the same thing from the $9 Apple dongle. Your claim that you can hear the difference is the extraordinary claim that bears the burden of extraordinary proof.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

Yes, you quoted the fact that Amir measured the Apple DAC to have a SINAD of 99. And yes, you were correct to point out that that puts it into the "Fair" not the "Excellent" category...However, you seem to be implying that this categorization supports your claim about the "thin, scratchy sound" of the Apple DAC...Unless both your M4 Mini and the Apple DAC are actually defective, those DACs are not the reason you hadn't ever heard the yawn in "I'm Only Sleeping".

It seems that some here cannot discern the difference between a limited claim vs a universal claim.

My limited claim: "I’m not sure if it's the Apple DAC I dislike or (more likely) the lack of amplification. Hard to describe, but when I plug my headphones directly into the Mac (either into the headphone jack or a USC-C dongle), I get a thin, scratchy sound.” Note that at no point did I claim the Apple DAC would be a bad experience for anyone else.

Universal claim: “The Mac Mini does not provide “thin, scratchy…horrible sound—it’s just not true…The measured performance of the internal DAC and amplifier feeding the headphone jack on your M4 Mini is excellent.”

The above is a truth/knowledge claim that's universal and not limited to just the observer. Also there was no objective data provided to support the claim that the Apple DAC is "excellent". I provided the ASR SINAD data that refuted the claim, as you reluctantly admit. As far as "hearing the yawn" in the Beatles' "I'm Only Sleeping", it's easy to "hear the yawn" once you're given the exact time stamp. Whether it was the quality of the DAC that made that yawn audible to me, or my active listening session via headphones (it was late & I was actually rather tired), or some combination of those factors, I'm humble enough to admit that I'm not sure.

 

[HalSF]

It seems that some here cannot discern the difference between a limited claim vs a universal claim.

My limited claim: "I’m not sure if it's the Apple DAC I dislike or (more likely) the lack of amplification. Hard to describe, but when I plug my headphones directly into the Mac (either into the headphone jack or a USC-C dongle), I get a thin, scratchy sound.” Note that at no point did I claim the Apple DAC would be a bad experience for anyone else.

Universal claim: “The Mac Mini does not provide “thin, scratchy…horrible sound—it’s just not true…The measured performance of the internal DAC and amplifier feeding the headphone jack on your M4 Mini is excellent.”

The above is a truth/knowledge claim that's universal and not limited to just the observer. Also there was no objective data provided to support the claim that the Apple DAC is "excellent". I provided the ASR SINAD data that refuted the claim, as you reluctantly admit. As far as "hearing the yawn" in the Beatles' "I'm Only Sleeping", it's easy to "hear the yawn" once you're given the exact time stamp. Whether it was the quality of the DAC that made that yawn audible to me, or my active listening session via headphones (it was late & I was actually rather tired), or some combination of those factors, I'm humble enough to admit that I'm not sure.

I think you’re being overly defensive and engaging a bit in sophistry. Your comments about the M4 Mini headphone out and the Apple dongle jumped out at me because I own both that Mini and the dongle and have found them to offer competent hi-fi sound without distortion: I’d also read that they measure well. I know you experienced what you say you heard, but the key question on a site called Audio Science Review is why? It’s not like the taste of asparagus, which some people like and others don’t, end of story.

Tell me if I’m wrong, but the clear implication of what you wrote is that the Mini headphone out offered poor, flawed performance. Of course it’s possible something else was technically faulty with your specific Mini, or your headphone, or the way you did your listening. But you seem to be fighting tooth and nail for the validity and integrity of what you heard without bothering with the idea that the dramatically bad audio was caused by something, and given what is known about the product, possibly something besides an inherently lousy product.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

I think you’re being overly defensive and engaging a bit in sophistry...I own both that Mini and the dongle and have found them to offer competent hi-fi sound

Your initial claim was the Apple DAC was “excellent”. Now you describe it as “competent”. You’re shifting ground with every post. That’s what happens when you make a universal claim based on a false premise. Universal claims are often easily refuted. This really isn’t about audio equipment now, it’s about impaired, ego-driven thinking.

I don’t have to prove anything about the Apple DAC/headphone amp because I never made a universal claim about them. I just didn’t like the sound, a subjective personal preference. If I had borrowed your language: “The Apple DAC is awful, and people who say otherwise are not telling the truth”. That’s a truth/knowledge claim—which requires justification based on
objective evidence. You still haven’t learned anything here—you’re now accusing me of “sophistry”. A bit of modesty would look good on you.

Note to forum: Sorry this thread went off the rails. I created this thread to discuss budget desktop options. Hopefully we can
get back to that.

 

[davybyrne]

Your initial claim was the Apple DAC was “excellent”. Now you describe it as “competent”. You’re shifting ground with every post.

I’m sorry but you must see that you’re being ridiculous, right? You’re quibbling over which particular word is used to convey the idea that the DAC perfectly fine? And that’s your winning argument?

Note to forum: Sorry this thread went off the rails. I created this thread to discuss budget desktop options. Hopefully we can
get back to that.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem that you’re willing to meaningfully participate in the discussion. You seem insistent on the idea that transparent DACs aren’t transparent. You’re convinced your transparent $200 DAC is better than the transparent $9 one, so what’s left to discuss? If you can provide a meaningful, reproducible measurement of what makes the $9 DAC worse, that would absolutely be a useful contribution to discuss.

 

[Roland68]

Update: for those of you who are actually interested in the Fosi ZD3 performance, read below.

I ordered the Fosi ZD3 yesterday at the crack of dawn and it was on my doorstep by 3 pm yesterday afternoon. Amazon recently built a huge warehouse 20 miles away from my home, so we sometimes get same day delivery. After a quick test drive, I can already say this $200 DAC provides amazing detail. I listened to the Beatles’ Revolver last night via headphones. At the 2:00 minute mark of “I’m Only Sleeping”, someone yawns into a microphone, lol. I’ve owned Revolver (in various formats) for over 40 years
and I’ve never heard that yawn before. Fosi packaging includes their marketing blurb: “Hear the Unheard”. I must say, this is a rare case of truth in advertising.

Note: for those "format curious", I currently own Revolver Interactions—a combo CD+DVD release (DVD contains a Dolby Atmos mix). But I listened to the CD version last night, ripped as a WAV file into Apple Music.

So, how do you use your headphones with the Fosi ZD3?

 

[Redacted]

I listened to the Beatles’ Revolver last night via headphones. At the 2:00 minute mark of “I’m Only Sleeping”, someone yawns into a microphone, lol. I’ve owned Revolver (in various formats) for over 40 years
and I’ve never heard that yawn before.

You've never noticed it before, more like! It's quite clear on any playback system or file format I've ever heard it played on. Maybe there are mixes or masters where they blanked it? - I don't know.
You'll be telling us 'Paul is dead' next

Seriously though, I have no doubt that the Fosi is excellent.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

You’re quibbling over which particular word is used to convey the idea that the DAC perfectly fine? ...You’re convinced your transparent $200 DAC is better than the transparent $9 one, so what’s left to discuss? If you can provide a meaningful, reproducible measurement of what makes the $9 DAC worse, that would absolutely be a useful contribution to discuss.

Words mean something. Let’s quibble over the words below:
My cat is gray.
Some cats are gray.
All cats are gray.

One of these claims is easily refuted. Great care needs to be taken before making universal claims. If you don’t think that’s important, then your thinking is impaired. And that will negatively affect all aspects of your life. It’s pretty clear that you didn’t bother to read my posts carefully. Instead, you came in here with your own agenda. As stated in post #5, I didn’t like the sound of my Mac using the Mac headphone jack/USB-C dongle, but wasn’t sure if the issue was the DAC or amplification. I never made the universal claim that a $200 Fosi DAC is better than the $9 Mac dongle for everyone. My limited claim: the combination of Mac—>Fosi DAC—>Yamaha amp sounds better to me.

It sounds like you’ve staked out the position that there’s no meaningful difference between a mediocre DAC vs an excellent DAC on the ASR SINAD scale. You may be right. But if there’s no meaningful difference, then it’s curious why the ASR scale includes the value-based categories “Excellent/Very Good/Fair/Poor”. But as stated in Post #14, I don’t have a problem when someone here posts that the Mac dongle is good enough for them. I have a real problem when someone here asserts that the Mac dongle is good enough for me and everyone else. Now go back and read my first paragraph regarding universal claims.

 

[Svend P]

Words mean something. Let’s quibble over the words below:
My cat is gray.
Some cats are gray.
All cats are gray.

One of these claims is easily refuted. Great care needs to be taken before making universal claims. If you don’t think that’s important, then your thinking is impaired. And that will negatively affect all aspects of your life. It’s pretty clear that you didn’t bother to read my posts carefully. Instead, you came in here with your own agenda. As stated in post #5, I didn’t like the sound of my Mac using the Mac headphone jack/USB-C dongle, but wasn’t sure if the issue was the DAC or amplification. I never made the universal claim that a $200 Fosi DAC is better than the $9 Mac dongle for everyone. My limited claim: the combination of Mac—>Fosi DAC—>Yamaha amp sounds better to me.

It sounds like you’ve staked out the position that there’s no meaningful difference between a mediocre DAC vs an excellent DAC on the ASR SINAD scale. You may be right. But if there’s no meaningful difference, then it’s curious why the ASR scale includes the value-based categories “Excellent/Very Good/Fair/Poor”. But as stated in Post #14, I don’t have a problem when someone here posts that the Mac dongle is good enough for them. I have a real problem when someone here asserts that the Mac dongle is good enough for me and everyone else. Now go back and read my first paragraph regarding universal claims.

You haven't read any of the threads I have linked to, so I will quote it here:

"
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...

And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's dumb! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!"

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

So, how do you use your headphones with the Fosi ZD3?

Hey Roland. I'm using my Yamaha HTR-5960 as a headphone amp.
My current setup: Mac Mini M4-->Fosi ZD3-->Yamaha HTR-5960.
My headphones = Pioneer HDJ-2000 with 36 ohm impedance. I also have a pair of ELAC UB52 external speakers.

My connections: Fosi's USB-A to USB-B cable from the Mac to the ZD3 (I had to add a USB-C adapter). I bought Fosi's RCA cables that go from the ZD3's RCA out to the Yamaha's CD input. I also turn on Yamaha's "Direct Mode" to avoid any HTR processing. I've also flipped the "bypass" switch on the ZD3 and use my Yamaha's volume control. I really enjoy this setup. The ZD3 has a small footprint--it's not much bigger than my Mac Mini.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

You've never noticed it before, more like! It's quite clear on any playback system or file format I've ever heard it played on. Maybe there are mixes or masters where they blanked it? - I don't know.
You'll be telling us 'Paul is dead' next

Seriously though, I have no doubt that the Fosi is excellent.

Hey man, I'm a boomer who's listened to the Beatles for my entire life. The acid test that determines if you're a boomer:

Can you remember when the Beatles were together?

I actually can, I was born in 1961 and the Beatles were always on the radio when I was a kid. But I never heard that yawn on "I'm Only Sleeping"--I laughed out loud when I heard it for the first time the other night. I usually listen to music in the car--with road noise and lossy AAC music from my iPhone, it's not surprising that I never heard it. Now that I'm retired, I spend a lot more time at home.

 

[Roland68]

Hey Roland. I'm using my Yamaha HTR-5960 as a headphone amp.
My current setup: Mac Mini M4-->Fosi ZD3-->Yamaha HTR-5960.
My headphones = Pioneer HDJ-2000 with 36 ohm impedance. I also have a pair of ELAC UB52 external speakers.

My connections: Fosi's USB-A to USB-B cable from the Mac to the ZD3 (I had to add a USB-C adapter). I bought Fosi's RCA cables that go from the ZD3's RCA out to the Yamaha's CD input. I also turn on Yamaha's "Direct Mode" to avoid any HTR processing. I've also flipped the "bypass" switch on the ZD3 and use my Yamaha's volume control. I really enjoy this setup. The ZD3 has a small footprint--it's not much bigger than my Mac Mini.

And you're using the HDJ-2000 with the headphone output of the HTR-5960?

 

[Redacted]

Hey man, I'm a boomer who's listened to the Beatles for my entire life. The acid test that determines if you're a boomer:

Can you remember when the Beatles were together?

I actually can, I was born in 1961 and the Beatles were always on the radio when I was a kid. But I never heard that yawn on "I'm Only Sleeping"--I laughed out loud when I heard it for the first time the other night. I usually listen to music in the car--with road noise and lossy AAC music from my iPhone, it's not surprising that I never heard it. Now that I'm retired, I spend a lot more time at home.

1961? You are barely out of short trousers then... I never asked when the Beatles were together. I lived through it all at the time.

You may well have listened to the Beatles your whole life, but it must have been on AM radio, or in a car exclusively - all I was suggesting is that the way you put it, it sounded like hearing the yawn was some unique feature of the Fosi!

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

And you're using the HDJ-2000 with the headphone output of the HTR-5960?

That's correct. Some here have suggested a headphone amp. My concern is desktop space--I currently have two Mac Minis,
a 32" monitor, Fosi DAC, and Yamaha HTR. I also use the Yamaha HTR to drive my ELAC external speakers (which are currently on the floor).

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

1961? You are barely out of short trousers then... I never asked when the Beatles were together. I lived through it all at the time.

You may well have listened to the Beatles your whole life, but it must have been on AM radio, or in a car exclusively - all I was suggesting is that the way you put it, it sounded like hearing the yawn was some unique feature of the Fosi!

I actually own the original 1987 Beatles CDs. Those CDs were released before the Loudness Wars, and have pretty good dynamic range. I had to replace my 1987 Revolver CD, it was scratched up pretty bad. I recently picked up the Revolver Interactions CD/DVD combo. A few weeks ago, I played the Revolver DVD (Atmos) on my 5.1 home theater system. Didn't hear the yawn. I think it's quite subtle--I've never seen it mentioned it on the Beatles sub-reddit, where they go into all kinds of arcane Beatle lore, e.g., the White Album's Helter Skelter closing, "I have blisters on my fingers!" lol.

 

[HalSF]

Your initial claim was the Apple DAC was “excellent”. Now you describe it as “competent”. You’re shifting ground with every post.

This is what I mean by “a bit of sophistry.” In terms of basic audio transparency and fidelity, excellent and competent hi-fi sound are pretty much the same thing from my perspective, and far from the damaged, distorted sound you described.

Having written in your OP post on the subject of M4 Mac Mini and Apple dongle headphones sound quality in addition to describing your DAC search — in a public forum about audio science — you ve been quite exasperated and combative in your engagement with me on the former topic that you raised. I enjoy engaging with challenging conversation here; you seem very unhappy about mild, courteous pushback.

 

[Redacted]

I'm off for a wee up a wall...

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

you ve been quite exasperated and combative in your engagement with me on the former topic that you raised...you seem very unhappy about mild, courteous pushback.

I’m “unhappy” when people make universal claims that they cannot support. I’m “unhappy” when people assert that I’m not telling the truth, but cannot justify their truth/knowledge claims with objective evidence. I have no problem with “pushback” when it’s clearly stated as opinion (limited claim), not fact (universal claim).

To everyone else, sorry about that detour to Freshman Logic 1001. I made it as brief as possible. If you have recommendations on desktop audio gear for under $400, please post them here. Just wondering if anyone
has tried the FiiO K13 R2R, that’s getting a lot of buzz. I’m hoping ASR will do a review.

 

[Redacted]

the FiiO K13 R2R, that’s getting a lot of buzz.

Yeah, another ground loop!