Looking for Desktop external DAC under $400

[DeadBeatAnon]

Newbie here, first post. I'm looking for an external DAC under $400. My desktop setup: Mac Mini M4-->Yamaha HTR-5960 (no HDMI). The HTR is 20 years old, but still like it as an amp for my Pioneer HDJ-2000 headphones and external speakers, ELAC Uni-Fi 2.0/UB52. I've ripped most of my CDs to WAV files, but still have a large AAC library. Using Apple Music for playback only. Currently the Mac is connected to my HTR via a Cubilux USB-C to Toslink optical (not ideal). I've read that the Mac Mini M4 has a decent DAC, but don't like the sound when plugging my headphones directly into the Mac.

I was about to pull the trigger on the FiiO K13 but after reading this site for a few weeks, I've now shifted to the Fosi ZD3, which has a solid review here. I'm thinking the setup would be Mac Mini M4-->Fosi ZD3-->Yamaha HTR-5960. I'd connect the Mac to Fosi via a short USB-C to USB-B cable (per Amir, the shorter the USB cable, the better). Then Fosi to HTR with RCA cables to CD input. I'd also use the HTR's "direct mode" to bypass any HTR processing. Any recommendations are appreciated, thanks.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

One additional question: is adding a $70 Douk DDC/Reclocker worth it. I'm thinking the setup would be:
Mac-->Douk DDC/Reclocker-->Fosi DAC-->Yamaha HTR. The YouTube channel OldGuyHiFi was touting the Reclocker. Thanks.

 

[Apesbrain]

I've now shifted to the Fosi ZD3, which has a solid review here.

Seems like a fine choice. If you want another option, I had a SMSL RAW-MDA1 for a few weeks and enjoyed it.

One additional question: is adding a $70 Douk DDC/Reclocker worth it.

No.

EDIT: If you're just looking for something new, you might consider the $9 Apple dongle.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Welcome to ASR !

You do not need a 'reclocker'

The Fosi ZD3 is an good choice.

Consider the $299 Topping DX5 II DAC/Headphone Amplifier.

The Topping DX5 II gives one the option to apply Parametric EQ.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

Seems like a fine choice. If you want another option, I had a SMSL RAW-MDA1 for a few weeks and enjoyed it.


No.

EDIT: If you're just looking for something new, you might consider the $9 Apple dongle.

Yep, I also tried Apple's USB-C/headphone dongle--which I originally bought for my iPad. I thought that sounded even worse than the Mini's headphone jack.
I'm not sure if it's the Apple DAC I dislike or (more likely) the lack of amplification. Hard to describe, but when I plug my headphones directly into the Mac (either into the headphone jack or a USC-C dongle), I get a thin, scratchy sound. Two good examples: "Bloom" from Radiohead's King of Limbs and "Taxman" from the Beatles' Revolver. Both sound horrible on the Mac. Plug the same headphones into my Yamaha HTR = much fuller sound, even though the DAC is 20 years old. My headphones are Pioneer HDJ-2000, impedance = 36 ohms. That's why I'm thinking a dedicated external DAC may be the way forward.

 

[RandomEar]

The HTJ-2000 is only 36 Ω and supposedly can absorb as much as 3.5 W of power. That's a lot. While efficiency seems decent, you need an amp with enough amps (no pun intended) for 36 Ω headphones. It makes sense to get a good DAC/headphone amp combo device for this usecase. The Fosi looks good, the Topping had some firmware bugs when released which are hopefully fixed now. The JDS Element IV could be another option.

If you can continue using the Toslink converter, I would actually do that. It eliminates any potential of ground loops or noise seeping in from the MacBook to the DAC. Since the signal would never leave the digital domain from the source through the converter up to the DAC, there would be no degradation.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

If you can continue using the Toslink converter, I would actually do that. It eliminates any potential of ground loops or noise seeping in from the MacBook to the DAC. Since the signal would never leave the digital domain from the source through the converter up to the DAC, there would be no degradation.

I actually thought about that, since I already spent $25 bucks on the USB-C to Toslink cable, lol. I just wasn't sure that was the best way to go. But what you posted makes sense. Thanks.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

Update: I just pulled the trigger on this gear, ordered the Fosi ZD3 DAC this morning via Amazon for $179, plus a set of Fosi RCA cables (4 ft) for $20. Per the advice from RandomEar, I'll use my Cubilux USB-C to Optical cable to connect the Mac Mini M4-->DAC. Then I'll run the Fosi RCA cables from the DAC-->Yamaha HTR-5960 via the CD inputs on the HTR. I'll also turn on the HTR's "direct mode" to avoid any HTR processing. For $200 bucks, I think this will be a nice solution. After a few weeks of playing around with it, I'll add a rating to Amir's review of the Fosi ZD3. Thanks guys.

 

[forart.it]

Nothing less than Topping E50 II, IMHO.

 

[HalSF]

Hard to describe, but when I plug my headphones directly into the Mac (either into the headphone jack or a USC-C dongle), I get a thin, scratchy sound. Two good examples: "Bloom" from Radiohead's King of Limbs and "Taxman" from the Beatles' Revolver. Both sound horrible on the Mac.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your excellent new DAC.

One concept you’re likely to encounter often here is that casual, subjective impressions of sound quality can be misleading. The headphone jack on the M4 Mac Mini does not provide “thin, scratchy…horrible” sound — it’s just not true. The M4 Mini can struggle with challenging-to-drive headphones like the Sennheiser HD600, but should have no problem with your Pioneer HDJ-2000 headphones. The measured performance of the internal DAC and amplifier feeding the headphone jack on your M4 Mini is excellent.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

The headphone jack on the M4 Mac Mini does not provide “thin, scratchy…horrible” sound — it’s just not true. The M4 Mini can struggle with challenging-to-drive headphones like the Sennheiser HD600, but should have no problem with your Pioneer HDJ-2000 headphones. The measured performance of the internal DAC and amplifier feeding the headphone jack on your M4 Mini is excellent.

You’re stating an opinion as if it’s fact. That’s like saying “My wife is not ugly—it’s just not true.” Your wife is not ugly to you. You can’t impose your beauty standard on everyone.

As stated earlier, I don’t like how my Mac Mini M4 sounds when I plug my headphones into its headphone jack, or when I use the Mac’s USB-C/headphone dongle. I even provided specific examples (Radiohead's "Bloom" and Beatles' "Taxman"). But I’d never assume everyone here agrees with my subjective listening experience. I may prefer my 20 year old Yamaha’s DAC over the M4 DAC—my Yamaha HTR-5960 was the hub of my home theater for the last 20 years. But I'm guessing it has more to do with amplification. When I queried Google’s Gemini/AI on this issue, it replied that Yamaha’s HTR-5960 amplification may generate a “bass-heavy, boomy sound”. I think I like that bass-heavy, boomy sound.

 

[Redacted]

I've used a Topping DX1 since they first came out. It's excellent for the money, attached to the laptop in my office, driving all the various headphones I have really nicely (good volume), and driving amps and speakers when I want (note that the line-out ports not controlled by the volume knob, only the phones. Not sure that matters).

There is DX1 mark 2 coming out soon - I suspect it will be very good.

 

[HalSF]

You’re stating an opinion as if it’s fact. That’s like saying “My wife is not ugly—it’s just not true.” Your wife is not ugly to you. You can’t impose your beauty standard on everyone.

As stated earlier, I don’t like how my Mac Mini M4 sounds when I plug my headphones into its headphone jack, or when I use the Mac’s USB-C/headphone dongle. I even provided specific examples (Radiohead's "Bloom" and Beatles' "Taxman"). But I’d never assume everyone here agrees with my subjective listening experience. I may prefer my 20 year old Yamaha’s DAC over the M4 DAC—my Yamaha HTR-5960 was the hub of my home theater for the last 20 years. But I'm guessing it has more to do with amplification. When I queried Google’s Gemini/AI on this issue, it replied that Yamaha’s HTR-5960 amplification may generate a “bass-heavy, boomy sound”. I think I like that bass-heavy, boomy sound.

Thank you for this response. I remember when I had to seriously question the pervasive audiophile culture of trusting your ears, of faith in your hearing as a reliable scientific instrument, of the platitude that not everything important can be measured, of if you’re asked to consider the pitfalls of sighted testing and other manifestations of suggestibility, it’s an insult to your audio prowess and honesty and the beauty of your wife.

Of course you’re free to describe your subjective listening, and to report you heard lousy sound via the M4 Mac Mini headphone jack. You are not obligated to offer any explanation of how and why the sound quality was bad. It’s the flavor of sound you actually experienced and are sharing as a fact, and you’re free not to know anything about the measured performance of the Mini headphone out, or be required to question your perception and reconcile it with measurements that don’t show why the sound would be thin, scratchy, and so distorted that Radiohead and the Beatles sound horrible.

I’m not trying to tell you what to think, but all this stuff I’m insinuating goes to the heart of what happens on this website and how the discussion of hi-fi excellence is different than other places where subjective individual connoisseurship is king.

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

it’s an insult to your audio prowess and honesty and the beauty of your wife

I’ve only been on this site for a few weeks, and the arrogance of some people here is quite breathtaking. I just spent the last few days on an ASR thread titled “I Don’t Like the Beatles”, and discovered that 90% of those posting seem to know practically nothing about the Beatles catalog. But unlike you, I’m not going to tell those people that they’re “wrong” and can’t trust their ears.

You describe the Apple M4 DAC as “excellent”. Let’s just put that to the test. The ASR DAC SINAD ratings are out there, an objective measurement (link below). The Apple Mac Mini M4 has the same DAC as the Apple USB-C Dongle. The ASR SINAD rating of the Apple DAC = 99, which puts it in the “Fair” category. So it’s not “excellent”, according to the ASR SINAD ratings. To be fair, it’s a $10 dongle, and if you love the sound of that DAC and think it’s excellent, then I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong. And that’s the difference between you and me.

Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements

EDIT: Kind translation to Spanish by member @RamiroColasurdo here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/page-8#post-1486638 A detailed tutorial on how one can characterize the true performance of DACs (whether...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[HalSF]

I’ve only been on this site for a few weeks, and the arrogance of some people here is quite breathtaking. I just spent the last few days on an ASR thread titled “I Don’t Like the Beatles”, and discovered that 90% of those posting seem to know practically nothing about the Beatles catalog. But unlike you, I’m not going to tell those people that they’re “wrong” and can’t trust their ears.

You describe the Apple M4 DAC as “excellent”. Let’s just put that to the test. The ASR DAC SINAD ratings are out there, an objective measurement (link below). The Apple Mac Mini M4 has the same DAC as the Apple USB-C Dongle. The ASR SINAD rating of the Apple DAC = 99, which puts it in the “Fair” category. So it’s not “excellent”, according to the ASR SINAD ratings. To be fair, it’s a $10 dongle, and if you love the sound of that DAC and think it’s excellent, then I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong. And that’s the difference between you and me.

Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements

EDIT: Kind translation to Spanish by member @RamiroColasurdo here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/page-8#post-1486638 A detailed tutorial on how one can characterize the true performance of DACs (whether...

www.audiosciencereview.com

When did I tell you you were wrong? I explicitly went out of my way not to! I know that people often say that ASR is a hostile place, but I don’t think I was impolite or attacked you or was hostile towards you AT ALL!

The SINAD numbers you’re citing do not explain or support your report of serious distortion and terrible sound quality.

 

[Svend P]

I’ve only been on this site for a few weeks, and the arrogance of some people here is quite breathtaking. I just spent the last few days on an ASR thread titled “I Don’t Like the Beatles”, and discovered that 90% of those posting seem to know practically nothing about the Beatles catalog. But unlike you, I’m not going to tell those people that they’re “wrong” and can’t trust their ears.

You describe the Apple M4 DAC as “excellent”. Let’s just put that to the test. The ASR DAC SINAD ratings are out there, an objective measurement (link below). The Apple Mac Mini M4 has the same DAC as the Apple USB-C Dongle. The ASR SINAD rating of the Apple DAC = 99, which puts it in the “Fair” category. So it’s not “excellent”, according to the ASR SINAD ratings. To be fair, it’s a $10 dongle, and if you love the sound of that DAC and think it’s excellent, then I’m not going to tell you that you’re wrong. And that’s the difference between you and me.

Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements

EDIT: Kind translation to Spanish by member @RamiroColasurdo here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/page-8#post-1486638 A detailed tutorial on how one can characterize the true performance of DACs (whether...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Sinad number is not a direct indicator of sound quality. Once you reach a certain threshold, there is no difference. It is only "fair" from an engineering standpoint. Sound-wise it will sound like any other DAC. You'll get a kick out of this thread:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

When did I tell you you were wrong?

That’s exactly what you did. After I pointed out that the ASR SINAD measurements did not support your claim that the Apple DAC is “excellent”, you’re now backpedaling as fast as you can. It’s quite ironic that I’m the one who used objective, ASR measurements, not you. But I’m quite willing to acknowledge that a superior DAC score is only one factor with many variables in play: the quality of the recording, the quality of the audio gear, the quality of the listener’s hearing, and how attentive and discerning the listener happens to be.

However, when you make a broad, sweeping claim—the burden of proof is on you. My claim was limited to my personal experience. Your claim was more sweeping—a flat assertion that the Apple DAC was uniformly excellent—not just for you, but also for me. That was the entire thrust of your original reply—stop pretending otherwise. It’s just another example of the ridiculous arrogance that repeatedly pops up on this board.

 

[Puddingbuks]

Sabaj A20D

 

[DeadBeatAnon]

Update: for those of you who are actually interested in the Fosi ZD3 performance, read below.

I ordered the Fosi ZD3 yesterday at the crack of dawn and it was on my doorstep by 3 pm yesterday afternoon. Amazon recently built a huge warehouse 20 miles away from my home, so we sometimes get same day delivery. After a quick test drive, I can already say this $200 DAC provides amazing detail. I listened to the Beatles’ Revolver last night via headphones. At the 2:00 minute mark of “I’m Only Sleeping”, someone yawns into a microphone, lol. I’ve owned Revolver (in various formats) for over 40 years
and I’ve never heard that yawn before. Fosi packaging includes their marketing blurb: “Hear the Unheard”. I must say, this is a rare case of truth in advertising.

Note: for those "format curious", I currently own Revolver Interactions—a combo CD+DVD release (DVD contains a Dolby Atmos mix). But I listened to the CD version last night, ripped as a WAV file into Apple Music.

 

[Svend P]

How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com