Looking for DAC with PCM5102 chip and optical input.

[audionub]

Like the title says: I really like the FIIO E10K with the PCM5102 chip, it has a bit bloated bass, but in a good way and it's the exact thing I like. But sadly this DAC has no optical input, so I'm looking for a DAC with the same DAC chip but with optical input. The reason is that I want to connect it to a WIIM mini, which sadly has no USB out.

Alternatively, would connecting a Hifime UR23 to it work (with a USB splitter for power delivery)?

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, I don't think I'll be the only one to say this ... but the DAC chip won't make any difference whatsoever.

Any decently made DAC (pretty much everything) will do its job without influencing the sound at all. If there is an audible difference then the DAC is broken (or has an odd filter or a ground loop or its just broken).

Pick a DAC in your budget with the features you like and don't worry about it.
Alternatively, the UR23 converter will be just fine - often recommended here.

Having said that, take a look at this thread too https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...au-ou-non-pcm5102mk-non-hat-dac-review.53237/

 

[audionub]

Well, my ears are sensitive, all of the DACs I tried in the €70-300 range sound very distinct, I haven't found 2 that sounded the same. For a long time my favorite was the wolfson 8740, it had groove, bass and dynamics, but it was a bit muddy in the mids/highs, but it sounded very musical. All the ESS sabre DACs sound very detailed and airy, but lack in musical enjoyment and have no dynamics/groove. The recent SMSL SU-1 sounds good and uncolored, there's no particular glaring fault, but it's a bit bland. I particularly like the color that the FIIO E10K gives to the sound, groovy, great bass and dynamic sound. Maybe these all sound the same to some people, but to me there are big differences, especially in the dynamics and color.

My concern with the UR23 is that the FIIO doesn't provide power on its usb port, and the UR23 has no power supply other than from its usb output. So I'm wondering whether the powered USB splitter will work, since it normally provides power only to the USB host (normally the phone), I'm not sure if it would power both the UR23 and the FIIO E10K.

 

[JeremyFife]

Well, my ears are sensitive, all of the DACs I tried in the €70-300 range sound very distinct, I haven't found 2 that sounded the same. For a long time my favorite was the wolfson 8740, it had groove, bass and dynamics, but it was a bit muddy in the mids/highs, but it sounded very musical. All the ESS sabre DACs sound very detailed and airy, but lack in musical enjoyment and have no dynamics/groove. The recent SMSL SU-1 sounds good and uncolored, there's no particular glaring fault, but it's a bit bland. I particularly like the color that the FIIO E10K gives to the sound, groovy, great bass and dynamic sound. Maybe these all sound the same to some people, but to me there are big differences, especially in the dynamics and color.

My concern with the UR23 is that the FIIO doesn't provide power on its usb port, and the UR23 has no power supply other than from its usb output. So I'm wondering whether the powered USB splitter will work, since it normally provides power only to the USB host (normally the phone), I'm not sure if it would power both the UR23 and the FIIO E10K.

Why not just try the UR23 with a splitter. You should be able to return it if it doesn't work - especially if you check with the seller first that there will be enough power.

Try a thought experiment: what does a DAC do that can affect an audio signal so much that the frequencies are altered? Don't use descriptive language, but consider the electronics. I found that interesting to do, especially when you think about timing (groove).

Read a few threads, see what resonates. Threads like this one have been running for years - but the basics are dealt with in the the first page https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...rent-are-that-many-confused.9245/post-2140548

 

[audionub]

I have a degree in applied physics, I have some understanding of electronics and engineering and appreciate the complexities involved. And I know there are enough elements and variables in a DAC, that'd I'd be extremely surprised if 2 DACs sounded the same: upsampling, filter design, analog output stage/opamp, clock, quality of capacitors, power supply, a near infinite list really when you zoom in far enough. And in my experience they really don't sound the same.

I think I'll give that UR23 a try and report if it works.

 

[JustJones]

The FIIO E10K is a headphone amplifier the amp section would be more apt to color the response than the dac chip used.

 

[bachatero]

There is actually a solution, and it's to get a board which converts optical audio to I2S, and another which converts I2S to analog. I got these for my DSP platform but I haven't tested their quality yet: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806237582314.html https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832641862934.html Best of all, you can swap them for whatever input and output and chip you want, since they just need to speak I2S.

 

[unpluggged]

I have a degree in applied physics

This is not a right place to brag about your degrees. If you can hear differences between DAC chips behind various analog stages, good for you then. For the rest of your requests, there are Google, Amazon, and AliExpress.

 

[audionub]

There is actually a solution, and it's to get a board which converts optical audio to I2S, and another which converts I2S to analog. I got these for my DSP platform but I haven't tested their quality yet: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806237582314.html https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832641862934.html

Pretty cool! I don't think I would be able to make this in a living room worthy looking device though. I'm curious whether it will work nicely though.

 

[A Surfer]

And not to pile on, but having an advanced degree in applied physics has absolutely no baring in this conversation. You would still be subject to all of the same internal and psychological vulnerabilities as anybody else, regardless of their level of education.

Expectation bias and confirmation is very likely at play unless you are able to demonstrate what special discrimination abilities you have and what evidence you have for your claim. In fact, having an advanced degree should help you understand this already.

 

[JeremyFife]

I have a degree in applied physics, I have some understanding of electronics and engineering and appreciate the complexities involved. And I know there are enough elements and variables in a DAC, that'd I'd be extremely surprised if 2 DACs sounded the same: upsampling, filter design, analog output stage/opamp, clock, quality of capacitors, power supply, a near infinite list really when you zoom in far enough. And in my experience they really don't sound the same.

I think I'll give that UR23 a try and report if it works.

Good luck with the UR23, sometimes the simple solutions are best.

Cool, you're technical. Have a look at some measurements of DACs - plenty on this site at all price ranges. The measurements are of DAC output, i.e. all the elements in the chain that you mention are taken into account. Look at the variations in measured performance (they measure differently) and note that the resulting impact on the sound is below audible thresholds - we can't hear it.

Put your science head on, apply your learned rigour, be objective. It's fascinating.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and I firmly believe that you should take your own preferences into account.
I'm inviting you to look again, and then apply your intellect to *why* we hear differences when the measurements demonstrate that there are none (or nothing that we are likely to hear).

I won't push this - I found it interesting and thought that you might too.

 

[MAB]

I have a degree in applied physics, I have some understanding of electronics and engineering and appreciate the complexities involved. And I know there are enough elements and variables in a DAC, that'd I'd be extremely surprised if 2 DACs sounded the same: upsampling, filter design, analog output stage/opamp, clock, quality of capacitors, power supply, a near infinite list really when you zoom in far enough. And in my experience they really don't sound the same.

I think I'll give that UR23 a try and report if it works.

Since you have a physics degree, you will appreciate that many experiments have been done to debunk the notion that people actually hear the differences in DACs you claim to hear. And, many studies have been done to explain why we can't hear the differences in DACs, even when the DACs measure differently. And of course many studies on the actual sensitivity and capabilities of our ears and hearing.

If you attempted to determine the differences in DACS that were level-matched, in a proper blind A/B/X test, you would not be able to, even under the most ideal conditions

All of the items you mention do have measurable affects, it's just that these are orders of magnitude below our audible threshold. The effects you mention are like someone shouting at you from tens of kilometers away, their voice is measurable with sensitive enough gear but certainly not audible.

 

[BDWoody]

I have a degree in applied physics, I have some understanding of electronics and engineering and appreciate the complexities involved.

So, if the signals coming out of two DACs both have a flat frequency response, and noise and distortion both below any audibility threshold you can come up with, where is the room for the difference in sound to come from? Look through a DAC review or two, and tell us what is missing from the suite of measurements that would help find what you believe isn't being reflected.

If two buildings were supposed to be 1km tall, and one was 1mm taller than the other, would you believe anyone who claims they can see the difference by just looking at them with the naked eye?

You've just got frequency, amplitude and phase. There's really no place for the special audiophile capacitor sauce to hide. You aren't going to claim we hear things we can't measure are you?

And I know there are enough elements and variables in a DAC, that'd I'd be extremely surprised if 2 DACs sounded the same: upsampling, filter design, analog output stage/opamp, clock, quality of capacitors, power supply, a near infinite list really when you zoom in far enough.

You may find yourself extremely surprised if you make some comparisons when you can't peek, or have obvious clues like volume differences.

And in my experience they really don't sound the same

Have you tried a test with any rigor to control for very natural human bias? Surely an educated man would recognize that we evolved to survive, not to be very good measurement tools. Bias needs to be considered and controls used if you want to do anything but reinforce your existing biases. The special clock and capacitors are just part of a story told to get access to your wallet. They aren't going to remove heretofore unknown veils.