Looking for an actual quality AVR?

[Sal1950]

If these units are testing badly, and highly regarded brands like McIntosh are still putting tubes in their top end Receivers, what hope is there to find a transparent AVR?

I wouldn't fret too much over the numbers seen here for AVR's and Pre/Pro's. First the likelihood of these measured failures from perfection being very audible are very small. Add in the quality of your speakers, are they SOTA that deliver a very detailed presentation capable of revealing the extremely tiny distortions caused by a less than SOTA DAC? I do send out big kudos to Amir for measureing and revealing these failures, there's really no excuse. Much of it could be improved or corrected with some better layout design, etc without adding huge costs to the consumer. I've got a feeling we may start seeing some better gear in the future due to the revealing of sloppy design.
Then when we are talking about these things, in 95% of the cases we are using some type of included DRC which will firstly, if done well, will give you better sound at the listening chain than a SOTA front end that doesn't offer any. Also one thing that hasn't been looked at anywhere AFAIK is what the various pieces of DRC software actually effect the signal in regards to such things like the various distortions, etc etc etc. We don't really know the end signals SQ with DRC switched in as no one is measuring them that way. They could be highly transparent or they could be . We expect the sound to change radically when we turn on DRC and questioning it or even doing something like a DBT between any of them is pretty much impossible.
IMO your best shot at getting something really good is to start with either a PrePro or a AVR with line level outputs so you can pick your own amps.
One of the main failings of AVR's is their power sections and ability to drive real world loads. Unless you have a real fat bank account don't spend a bundle, a few years from now when the rapidly changing world of HT out-dates many of your codecs the resale value will fall thru the floor.
Do invest in a Atmo's DTS-X speaker arrangement. IMO the immersive experience it's well worth the cost and hastel for playback from all sources.
If your interest falls heavily on the music side, I would try to get a device that includes. Auro. Not for it's movie playback, I don't think there's more than a couple dozen Auro movies world wide and I believe its about dead in that aspect. But Auro 2/3D, Auromagic, or whatever they call it today does arguably the best upsampling of stereo sources out there. So if upsampling is something your interested in, you might want to take that into consideration.

Don't let all this stuff send you to the medicen cabinet for Valium. Just play your music or watch StarWars and enjoy life.

 

[Sancus]

I wouldn't fret too much over the numbers seen here for AVR's and Pre/Pro's. First the likelihood of these measured failures from perfection being very audible are very small. Add in the quality of your speakers, are they SOTA that deliver a very detailed presentation capable of revealing the extremely tiny distortions caused by a less than SOTA DAC? I do send out big kudos to Amir for measureing and revealing these failures, there's really no excuse. Much of it could be improved or corrected with some better layout design, etc without adding huge costs to the consumer. I've got a feeling we may start seeing some better gear in the future due to the revealing of sloppy design.

Don't let all this stuff send you to the medicen cabinet for Valium. Just play your music or watch StarWars and enjoy life.

Agreed.

The Denon AVR Amir reviewed seems to have 95db SINAD to the RCA outputs, as long as you're not going past 1.5V output. That is stupid and they should fix it to properly output 2V without compromise, but it's good enough for most practical uses.

The amplifier stage came out at 83.5db SINAD. Again, not great, but could I tell the difference between 83.5db SINAD and the 105db of a Hypex stage blind? Haha, not in a million years. If anyone can, they would be hearing an infinitesimally small defect that you wouldn't notice without deep concentration, training, and many repeated trials of a specific tone or type of music. Certainly far more improvement to be found in your speakers if you are even looking at electronics in this price range.

I appreciate Amir pointing out these kinds of manufacturer defects, and hopefully it leads to corrections and improvements as it has for certain other companies, but I don't think the logical response is to go out and spend thousands more trying to make the inaudible number higher.

 

[bullet0770]

I am in same boat and need some help as well, my budget is $1500. I have started my own thread as well, this AVR is for my basement home theater.

 

[krabapple]

If your interest falls heavily on the music side, I would try to get a device that includes. Auro. Not for it's movie playback, I don't think there's more than a couple dozen Auro movies world wide and I believe its about dead in that aspect. But Auro 2/3D, Auromagic, or whatever they call it today does arguably the best upsampling of stereo sources out there. So if upsampling is something your interested in, you might want to take that into consideration.

I think you mean upmixing?

Is there an AVR that doesn't cost > $1500 that includes Dirac correction and either Auro or Logic7 upmixing?

(Some Denons have Audyssey correction and Auro upmixing, but I've 'done' Audyssey for years and am curious about Dirac. And as regards upmixers, I actually really liked the old Dolby Pro Logic IIx upmixer, but that has been replaced nearly universally on AVRs these days by the lesser - to my ears -- Dolby Surround upmixer.)

 

[Sancus]

I think you mean upmixing?

Is there an AVR that doesn't cost > $1500 that includes Dirac correction and either Auro or Logic7 upmixing?

I've been searching off and on this whole year and haven't found anything like this, no. The closest is the unreleased Monoprice Monolith(Auro3D, Dirac) at $4K and the JBL SDP-55(Dirac, Auro3D, and a new version of Harman Logic called Logic16) at $6000. Pricy stuff.

 

[chebum]

The HDFever.fr review has proper measurements and looks very competent. Only available on way back machine.

With most AVRs DAC measurements tell half-story. Mostly no-one buys AVR or receiver to listen to them in pure direct mode. Most people use surround processing, room-correction and loudness functions. We can get a good DAC and amplifier performance, but DSP will make the sound dirty. I own Arcam AVR 400 which sounds good to my ears in direct mode with all processing turned off. Enabling Dolby Volume adds noticeable grain to the sound. As far as I remember, Denon X3500 showed the same behaviour - it was smooth in direct mode and more grainy with Audyssey turned on.

 

[MX48]

I am looking to get Dirac Live without breaking my bank (Monoprice is too much and, of course, has not been tested by Amirm for quality yet). All the current AVR's in my price range have problems, NAD, Arcam etc.

So I was thinking of a MiniDSP DDRC 88a, but owners complain of noise, especially in channel 1. Some even have to workaround it by using it as the sub channel.

I currently have a Denon 5200 Atmos receiver. I know I can't use Dirac on the height channels without 2 88a's but I can live with that.

Does anyone know if the MiniDSP has been thoroughly tested anywhere? I have been unable to find anything.
Or will the Denon be my limiting factor anyway so I shouldn't fret about the 88a.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[database]

I am looking to get Dirac Live without breaking my bank (Monoprice is too much and, of course, has not been tested by Amirm for quality yet). All the current AVR's in my price range have problems, NAD, Arcam etc.

So I was thinking of a MiniDSP DDRC 88a, but owners complain of noise, especially in channel 1. Some even have to workaround it by using it as the sub channel.

I currently have a Denon 5200 Atmos receiver. I know I can't use Dirac on the height channels without 2 88a's but I can live with that.

Does anyone know if the MiniDSP has been thoroughly tested anywhere? I have been unable to find anything.
Or will the Denon be my limiting factor anyway so I shouldn't fret about the 88a.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

In order to use the miniDSP DDRC 88a, external power amplifiers are required on all channels using Dirac. If you don't already have external amplification that will get expensive quickly. Plus, with the miniDSP you are forced to have an extra AD-DA conversion step (receiver converts digital to analog which gets sent to miniDSP, which converts analog back to digital to apply Dirac filters, then converts back to analog to send to the external power amp), so if you're focused on having the best measured DAC performance adding the miniDSP doesn't make much sense -- you're at the mercy of whichever of the two DACs is worse in your setup (and the miniDSP 88a DAC and ADC have not been measured on ASR). I don't think the miniDSP 88a would measure great on ASR, I own it and even ignoring the channel 1 noise which I worked around by using it as the sub channel, I still get an audible white noise hiss with my ears right next to my speakers, which occurs only when adding the 88a to my chain, and remains even when muting the 88a. So the device seems to have a high noise floor.

That being said, adding the 88a + external power amps would still certainly be an upgrade to your setup because measurements aren't everything and Dirac really is that much better than Audyssey. But I still think the NAD T758v3 is the best affordable option for users to get started with Dirac, despite the ASR review (especially while it's available on eBay for $800 refurbished from a certified NAD dealer). I've heard the NAD with no external power amp on a friend's setup, and the first observation we had is that there is no hiss coming from the speakers at all. Dead silent. And as for the sound, it sounds much, much better than any Denon receiver I've heard for movies and music (the highest end Denon model I've heard was a 4XXX model). No doubt that's mainly thanks to Dirac, but I don't think the NAD's seemingly poor measurements hurt it as much as you might expect. The NAD review mentions that DAC SINAD is a lot better with the volume at -6 dB compared to 0 dB. Our listening comparisons were done at reasonable volumes (probably around -15 dB) so we were nowhere near the 0 dB volume which should produce the terrible measurements found in the review.

My setup used to consist of a Denon 4XXX receiver + miniDSP 88a with Dirac Live + Outlaw 7 channel power amp. Subjectively, I felt my friend's NAD setup, running the same speakers as my own, matched my setup if not surpassed it. Of course, there are many other variables involved, like the positioning of the speakers, the size and shape of the listening room, and so on, for this to be a really valid comparison. But my point is that the NAD sounds a lot better than ASR suggests, and it's silly that so many people dismiss it without hearing it just because of one review that only looks at measurements.

If the measurements of the T758v3 are still a concern you might consider the T777v3 whose measurements aren't as bad, but at $1700 refurbished I'm not sure it would be worth it -- you could save $900 and put it towards some nice external amps instead.

As for my own setup, I heard audible improvements when swapping my Denon 4XXX receiver out for an Anthem MRX 720 (and was able to tell the difference in a level matched blind test), while keeping the miniDSP 88a and Outlaw amp. This suggests to me that the poor DAC measurements of the Denon were audibly degrading the sound in my setup, and the ASR DAC measurements of two receivers that are close to the models I had support that this is probably true. So for those that say these poor AVR measurements shouldn't be audible, I don't necessarily agree with that either.

For my next steps on my own setup, I've ordered the Monoprice Monolith HTP-1 to test out vs the Anthem MRX 720 + miniDSP 88a. On paper it should sound much better, as I'll be able to remove the second AD-DA conversion required by the miniDSP 88a, so my only DA conversion will be from the AK4493 DACs on the HTP-1. We'll see. I hope someone sends the HTP-1 for an ASR review as well.

 

[Grandzoltar]

The Nad t 778 looks to improve on the prior models pitfalls. The updated dac and Hypex amp modules along with Dirac. Maybe they delayed the November release date because they are making final tweaks knowing ASR are going to do thorough testing on it.

 

[k3nb5t]

I've been searching off and on this whole year and haven't found anything like this, no. The closest is the unreleased Monoprice Monolith(Auro3D, Dirac) at $4K and the JBL SDP-55(Dirac, Auro3D, and a new version of Harman Logic called Logic16) at $6000. Pricy stuff.

I would add the Emotiva XMC-2 to the mix. It is priced at $3,000 USD. Way above the $1500 mark, but it costs less than the examples you cited. I own an XMC-1 and have been very happy with it.

https://emotiva.com/collections/home-theater/products/xmc-2

EDIT: I forgot to add that Amir tested an XMC-1
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-emotiva-xmc-1-gen-2-pre-pro.9225/

 

[Sancus]

I would add the Emotiva XMC-2 to the mix. It is priced at $3,000 USD. Way above the $1500 mark, but it costs less than the examples you cited. I own an XMC-1 and have been very happy with it.

https://emotiva.com/collections/home-theater/products/xmc-2

Yes, it seems like a good option, it does have Dirac. Unfortunately it lacks Auro3D let alone Logic7/16, so it's not very attractive to me.

 

[stunta]

First thing I realized was that a sub-$3K budget (that was my budget) is going to be a compromise. Dirac Live must have steep licensing fees that the AVR manufacturers pass on to the customers. I ended up getting the miniDsp DDRC-88A along with a refurb Integra DRC-R1.1 processor. I haven't seen ASR measurements for either of these so it was a leap of faith. To be sure, for 2-channel music I am using an external DAC measured by Amir. In general, DRC for my room and external crossover capability were key features for me and I am likely trading off sound quality with the miniDsp conversions. Like I said - compromises, so you have to figure out what your priorities are.

Integra supposedly has a more rugged build than its Onkyo equivalent. Their refurb prices are pretty good IMO and with separates, I am minimizing the hit when I have to upgrade because of new HDMI versions or whatever else.

The miniDsp has balanced I/O so the only changes I am anticipating for a while will be software updates.

If you have amps that measure well, are built well and can handle most speaker loads, you will likely not need to swap those out for a long time.

 

[March Audio]

I used to own an Onkyo AVR and AFAIK with the research I did the Integra versions are identical.

My concern with it was that it ran at extremely high temperature which gave me concerns for long term reliability. Lots of talk on the net about Onkyo temps.

 

[MX48]

I have external amplification but am concerned about the MiniDSP as many are.
As far as Emo, if I am going to spend $3000 I would just go to $4000 and get the HTP-1 assuming it gets tested and passes.
I thought I was getting over being picky about my sound but that has not happened and I want and expect something of decent quality.

Having said that I have looked at the T758 many times as I don't play music or movies at high level (excluding bass), but have been unable to pull the trigger.

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. Turned me on to Hypex but has shown me the shortcomings in other products.

I may have to save up for the HTP-1. But that might mean skipping a new dirt bike this year, which I get as much enjoyment out of as home theater...sigh.
No inexpensive answer here.

 

[Dimifoot]

I would add the Emotiva XMC-2 to the mix

No Dirac yet. If ever.

 

[Sancus]

No Dirac yet. If ever.

Wow, I didn't realize the advertised Dirac was not delivered yet. So they shipped a product 3 months ago and one of the major features listed on it still has no delivery date? On a $3000 device? That is pretty unacceptable, imo.

 

[Roasty]

I was looking at Anthem avrs but the front panel just seems really "uncool".. The new NAD 778 on the other hand really looks nice!

 

[Dimifoot]

Wow, I didn't realize the advertised Dirac was not delivered yet. So they shipped a product 3 months ago and one of the major features listed on it still has no delivery date? On a $3000 device? That is pretty unacceptable, imo.

Actually it’s over a year now that the top of the range RMC 1 is being shipped without Dirac

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I have slowly started breaking my AVR into individual components. I currently have a Denon AVR-3808, which is more than 10 years old. Last year I bought two MiniDSP NanoAVRs, one for Bass Management and the other for Dirac. I use the HDMI Audio Out from my Oppo 203, this feeds the first Nano for BM and that goes to the second Nano for Dirac, and then finally into the Denon. You can configure the Denon with multi-channel direct mode, set the speakers to large and the signal by passes the internal bass management. You can also disable the built in room correction, leave the levels and distance setting all the same so the NanoAVR Dirac handles these. It seems to work, no issues with HDMI handshake, with over a year of use.

i did this originally, because it seemed to be the most cost effective way to add Dirac to my current setup. I didn’t think it was worth replacing the Denon amp section. But now I’m thinking that an 8 channel DAC like the OktoDac8, feeding 5 channels of Ncore amps might be a worthwhile upgrade. Found a recent thread that calmed my concerns of how volume will work without a preamp.

I looked at getting the Cambridge Audio CXR-200, as I already had Dirac, but the amp section of the CXR-200 did not seem much better than the Denon. I did compare the 3808 DACs with the Oppo 203, but could hear no difference.

All the threads here about poor performing AVRs got me thinking about going down this complicated route. The two NanoAVRs already give me most of the extra functionality an AVR has over just power amps.

Nick,
That is close to the same setup I use. And I believe that the NanoAVRs are heavily underrated because they only have Hdmi 1.4 and a simple DAC. The Hdmi problem can be circumvented with a separate video and audio path. And the DAC could be upgraded by simply adding a better one with HDMI out. But there seems to be none available with HDMI input.
The NanoAvrs are discontinued, I am thinking of posting that separately.

 

[Sancus]

And the DAC could be upgraded by simply adding a better one with HDMI out. But there seems to be none available with HDMI input..

There is the Evolve HDMI DAC. And while I don't think it has been reviewed, one of their other products was more than competent enough.