Looking for an actual quality AVR?

[donttrustgoats]

The JBLs are rebadged Arcams with upgraded DACs, faceplate, Dante, and additional codecs. Harman owns Arcam.

 

[snickers]

The JBL's also have the new Logic16 decoder, which the Arcam's don't have unfortunately...

 

[North_Sky]

Very cool info from the posts above, thank you.

 

[cookiefactory]

I just picked up https://www.bestbuy.com/site/reviews/insignia-200w-2-0-ch-stereo-receiver-black/4156007?variant=A to power a set of Insignia NS-B2111 bookshelf speakers I found in my parent's basement. If you recall, these bookshelf speakers were internet sensations several years ago due to providing non-terrible sound for $50-80.

The Insignia receiver works pretty well (thus far), and I would be very interested in its measurements. The two types of reviews I find most interesting are:

1. Discovering "giant killers". These are the low priced, unassuming audio components that push the envelope when it comes to transparency-for-price. This IMO is the true spirit of the objectivist movement - how do we find good sounding gear without all the marketing, and snake-oil BS.

2. The Emperor Has No Clothes. These reviews expose flaws and substandard engineering in extravagantly priced equipment. We skewer snake oil peddlers and have a nice chuckle at the expense of audiophools who have more money than sense.

 

[Putter]

I just picked up https://www.bestbuy.com/site/reviews/insignia-200w-2-0-ch-stereo-receiver-black/4156007?variant=A to power a set of Insignia NS-B2111 bookshelf speakers I found in my parent's basement. If you recall, these bookshelf speakers were internet sensations several years ago due to providing non-terrible sound for $50-80.

The Insignia receiver works pretty well (thus far), and I would be very interested in its measurements. The two types of reviews I find most interesting are:

1. Discovering "giant killers". These are the low priced, unassuming audio components that push the envelope when it comes to transparency-for-price. This IMO is the true spirit of the objectivist movement - how do we find good sounding gear without all the marketing, and snake-oil BS.

2. The Emperor Has No Clothes. These reviews expose flaws and substandard engineering in extravagantly priced equipment. We skewer snake oil peddlers and have a nice chuckle at the expense of audiophools who have more money than sense.

My guess is that you'll hear very little difference between the receiver and any other except on very loud volumes and specialized test signals. Having said this the specs don't show a full bandwidth (40hz-100khz +/-3db), a spec closer to a speaker one that of an amp,
and a distortion spec of Stereo mode, 8 Ohms (Ω), THD 1%, 40 Hz~20 kHz: 2×100 W.

I would guess it's a solid 60 wpc at a reasonable distortion level (say 0.1%THD). You might??? hear a difference at very high volumes, in which case turn it down so you don't blow the speaker drivers.

 

[audimus]

Buying an expensive AVR now is not a good investment because the front end technology is changing so much and the manufacturers are getting into a short product life-cycle game with lip service to upgradeability.

The ideal would be a very good amp (which can always be augmented if additional channels required) which will last decades and an inexpensive but good pre/pro with room correction capability that allowed you to pay for only what you want and was priced (in the $1k range) such that upgrading it every 2 years or so wasn’t that bad a deal. For total cost of ownership reasons not necessarily that separates would sound better.

Unfortunately, such a pre-amp does not exist. The closest I can think of is the new Outlaw pre/pro but with no room correction.

Or perhaps a low-end AVR being replaced with no significant feature upgrade but discounted heavily and with pre outs and decent room correction.

 

[KozmoNaut]

If MiniDSP made a HDMI input/8+ channel output version of the SHD, that would work great as an extensible preamp with first-class room correction.

 

[audimus]

If MiniDSP made a HDMI input/8+ channel output version of the SHD, that would work great as an extensible preamp with first-class room correction.

Yes, that would be great or even if they upgraded their NanoAVR HDA with updated DAC and HDMI 2.0b, that would satisfy a lot of needs. But unfortunately, their execution on the HDMI front has been plagued with problems to trust them to do it right. They might not want the NanoAVR to steal sales from the SHD either.

 

[Nick Laslett]

I have slowly started breaking my AVR into individual components. I currently have a Denon AVR-3808, which is more than 10 years old. Last year I bought two MiniDSP NanoAVRs, one for Bass Management and the other for Dirac. I use the HDMI Audio Out from my Oppo 203, this feeds the first Nano for BM and that goes to the second Nano for Dirac, and then finally into the Denon. You can configure the Denon with multi-channel direct mode, set the speakers to large and the signal by passes the internal bass management. You can also disable the built in room correction, leave the levels and distance setting all the same so the NanoAVR Dirac handles these. It seems to work, no issues with HDMI handshake, with over a year of use.

i did this originally, because it seemed to be the most cost effective way to add Dirac to my current setup. I didn’t think it was worth replacing the Denon amp section. But now I’m thinking that an 8 channel DAC like the OktoDac8, feeding 5 channels of Ncore amps might be a worthwhile upgrade. Found a recent thread that calmed my concerns of how volume will work without a preamp.

I looked at getting the Cambridge Audio CXR-200, as I already had Dirac, but the amp section of the CXR-200 did not seem much better than the Denon. I did compare the 3808 DACs with the Oppo 203, but could hear no difference.

All the threads here about poor performing AVRs got me thinking about going down this complicated route. The two NanoAVRs already give me most of the extra functionality an AVR has over just power amps.

 

[audimus]

I have slowly started breaking my AVR into individual components. I currently have a Denon AVR-3808, which is more than 10 years old. Last year I bought two MiniDSP NanoAVRs, one for Bass Management and the other for Dirac. I use the HDMI Audio Out from my Oppo 203, this feeds the first Nano for BM and that goes to the second Nano for Dirac, and then finally into the Denon. You can configure the Denon with multi-channel direct mode, set the speakers to large and the signal by passes the internal bass management. You can also disable the built in room correction, leave the levels and distance setting all the same so the NanoAVR Dirac handles these. It seems to work, no issues with HDMI handshake, with over a year of use.

i did this originally, because it seemed to be the most cost effective way to add Dirac to my current setup. I didn’t think it was worth replacing the Denon amp section. But now I’m thinking that an 8 channel DAC like the OktoDac8, feeding 5 channels of Ncore amps might be a worthwhile upgrade. Found a recent thread that calmed my concerns of how volume will work without a preamp.

I looked at getting the Cambridge Audio CXR-200, as I already had Dirac, but the amp section of the CXR-200 did not seem much better than the Denon. I did compare the 3808 DACs with the Oppo 203, but could hear no difference.

All the threads here about poor performing AVRs got me thinking about going down this complicated route. The two NanoAVRs already give me most of the extra functionality an AVR has over just power amps.

On the other hand, at that level of investment, a higher end Arcam AVR might turn out to be a better integrated solution unless you are doing Audio only (even with multi-channel) or not likely to go higher than 1080p video or have two parallel video and audio paths. We don’t know how Arcams measure as yet, of course relevant to music listening.

The separates path at this point in time is a bit messy to get it integrated right and for a reasonable price unless you have a narrow vertical use case.

Also for multi-channel HT use multi-channel DAC units like Okto seem like an over kill. That level of transparency is wasted for that purpose and it is limited to 8 channels. You will get a lot more out of HT experience investing in more surround setup. MiniDSP SHD for the music path going direct to two channels of an amp bank and a mid range AVR with good multi-channel room correction used as a pre or even with its own amp section might be better bang for the buck.

I have one prototype setup which is a lower end version of the above with the music going through Paradigm PW Link with ARC and the HT going through an old Adcom AVR with a PC based multi-channel room correction. Reasonably integrated with budget and scavenged parts. I am thinking of duplicating that with higher fidelity components as I find the right components.

 

[North_Sky]

Couple actual quality hi-end AVRs including some measurements ...

Arcam
• https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/receivers/arcam-avr850-surround-receiver/

Anthem
• https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/receivers/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review/

If Amir could measure them all the world would probably be a safer/better place.
He would need to hire a team ...
Short of that we can look @ the ones (lower-end) he did measure from those companies and have a rough estimation.

There's another very important element today in those machines; their auto room calibration and EQ systems. Some vintage AV receivers may measure better for signal to noise ratio, %THD, linearity, clean power, stable into low impedance loads, DACs, etc., etc., etc., but they don't have the sophisticated room equalization systems and the plethora of useful (and less useful) and cool features offered by today's newer AVRs...including multich. decoders for Dolby Atmos and DTS:X

So it's all about what the AVR hunter is looking for...the features and the level of sophistication of it's room EQ. Or going more quality vintage and invest in acoustical room treatments.

With say a budget between $1,000 and $4,000 everyone can find his baby for his/her needs. Those prices are US sale prices (Black Friday & Boxing Day style), so they include the top most expensive AVRs...atmos almost.

 

[Nick Laslett]

I actually had the Arcam Alpha 7 and 7P power amp combo, which I loved, my first amp purchases in 1996. But in 2007 I moved countries, sold the amps and got the Denon AVR and the “simplicity” of HDMI. At the time DTS HD MA was new and this was one of the first AVRs with Audyssey and all that home theatre “magic”!

The thing is, I never liked the Denon, hated it from day one. Fiddled with the settings till it drove me mad. During the move there was a 6 month gap where I had no audio equipment. I couldn’t understand why my setup with the Arcam was so good, but with the Denon something was always missing.

I looked at getting an Arcam AVR 850 for a long time.

The HDFever.fr review has proper measurements and looks very competent. Only available on way back machine.

HDFever.fr Arcam AVR 850 Measurements

 

[Deeluik]

An update from my side on experimenting with room correction in multi channel. I used an oppo 203 as multi channel dac / preamp via HDMI to replace my Denon AVR X7200WA. To do room correction to my 4.0 active speaker setup I used Jriver media center. I did the measurements with REW and had it create param eq filters. Then I inserted the filters into Jriver MC. As Jriver MC can be used with a wdm driver I could use it as a virtual AVR decoding dolby digital+ coming in from the Netflix App on Win10. After adjusting the input and output buffer settings in Jriver lipsync was ok and the result is more than pleasing movie sound. With the oppo 203 it is also great that you can already perform basic dsp like speaker distances and gain. Also the dac filter can be adjusted to personal taste.

Are there more virtual / software defined AVR solutions? As I really like having little cables and do the cabling virtually inside a pc

I actually don’t know of an AVR besides using Jriver MC as virtual AVR where all audio processing including volume control is done in the digital domain which might lead to a better design?

 

[avm]

Let’s see:

We want 9-11 channels of quality amplification+analog stages
11 channels with high quality dacs
Quality room correction software
Processor-crossover functions
HDMI 2.0
Airplay, Spotify, Roon, Tidal, Dolby Atmos, Auro3D, DTS, MQA etc etc compatibility (+royalties!!!!)
All that in one case, functioning smoothly

Do the math...it can’t cost 2000$

You're absolutely right Dimifoot! Even if I had a 3-figure sum of money at my disposal I would never buy a fancy AVR. This might sound a bit crazy but instead I would buy 3 stereo power amps+ preamps and I would connect it to my on-board multichannel DAC of my computer and do the decoding with software. I reckon this would substantially outperform any x000$ AVR out there for a fraction of the price. Did I even mention heat dissipation and repairability?

 

[Cahudson42]

Just a thought if you are considering an Integra:
Get the Service Manual on-line first. Then look for less expensive Onkyo TX-RZxxx that have similar specs - get the Service Manual for it. You may find that 'under the covers' the Onkyo is almost identical - if not identical - to the Integra. Badge Engineering in play..

In fact, the SM for my TX-RZ720 ($399 a year ago) has common sections with Integra models specifically mentioned..

 

[vavan]

My last four AVR have all been Pioneer Elite class D receivers. I always buy one below the top which is currently the SC-LX701. I’ve always found them plenty powerful and very clean. Not sure how they measure but I’ve always been satisfied. The SC-LX701 can be picked up for around $900

never heard 701 but fwiw I cannot hear any discernible difference between oppo-205 and sc-lx 901 both connected to the parasound hint. oh, and hint's own built-in dac (though different sabre version) sounds the same for me

 

[Sancus]

Unfortunately, such a pre-amp does not exist. The closest I can think of is the new Outlaw pre/pro but with no room correction.

It appears even the highest end of these doesn't support Atmos?

I've been trying to find a processor/AVR that provides: Atmos, a decent room correction algorithm(Audyssey XT32 or better, preferably Dirac), and Auro3D(for the music upmixing, which has been described favorably by Dr Toole and others).

The standard Denon AVRs frankly seem like the only option without spending a lot of money. If you want Dirac it seems like the cheapest option is the forever-not-quite-released-yet Monoprice Monolith. Still very expensive, though. The JBL SDP-55 is supposed to be $6000, which is even more expensive, but Logic16 is probably good given that the older Harman Logic algorithms were regarded as doing upmixing better than anyone else.

Regardless, it's all a lot of money to spend for electronics boxes that get obsoleted on a 1-2 year cycle.

 

[North_Sky]

Last spring you missed the deal of the century for exactly what you are looking for ...
• https://slickdeals.net/f/13084894-d...h-3d-audio-and-amazon-alexa-voice-control-599

Word on the street is that it'll get around $799 on Amazon eventually.
This is the unit you want to keep an eye open for.

If you want it now A4L has it new (3-year warranty) for $1,199
• https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...ch-x-125-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new/1.html

 

[Sancus]

Yeah, I'm aware of the standard Denon AVRs. It probably makes more sense to go with one of them and an external minidsp dirac box if I want to add that, than to spend $4-6K on a one-box processor. Especially since it's unlikely I'll need more than 9 channels any time soon. Just looking if there's any products I've missed.

I'm in no rush to purchase so current pricing/deals don't really matter -- most likely I'll wait to see what the 2020 product cycle reveals, at this point, rather than buying anything now.

 

[North_Sky]

Wise, and Anthem make quality AV receivers too ... without Auro-3D.