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Living room system based on Genelec or Neumann.

I know a lot about spinorama measurements and its correlation to preference. Firstly almost no one can interpret the graphs correctly. No offense but, I guess you are also not very good at it. Secondly even the not so bad calculation of the predicted preferences score has major flaws, especially if you compare multiple different good speaker designs. In the past the score was much more meaningful since the average speaker design was not that good.

Have you ever back tested your discarding practice with a speaker which is highly regarded by listeners despite the not usual measurements? I guess you have not?

So would you put the neumann speaker in the category of inoffensive and enjoyable for casual TV usage? As I mentioned even with eq the KH 120 is not that speaker and I guess the KH 150 is neither.

Yes you can equalize some speakers to some extent but without major knowledge you won't get that far. The task to transform a rather offensive monitor into an relaxed sounding speaker is challenging and to my experience impossible with some specific DIs.
On top of that I would not recommend anyone to do that without this major warning. Since you need knowledge, time and there is a higher chance to fail with your attempt. The logical way is to start with a more fitting speaker.
I would never purport to be an expert at anything.
Even though I am ‘not very good’ at interpreting graphs I use them primarily to weed out poorly measuring designs, which saves a lot of time and expense.
My experience has been the better the measurements the more transparent the sound.
I would go as far to say that today I would not even consider a loudspeaker design unless it has been properly measured cea-2034/klippel.
Neumann is one of the few brands I do not have direct experience of but Amir’s measurements of their 420 appear to me to be excellent and they would definitely go on my ‘possibles’ list.
Sadly as a retailer I actually have to purchase stock before I listen to them, as a ‘punter’ I would always recommend insisting on a home evaluation.
I often hear poorly measuring loudspeakers nothing I have heard as led me to re-assess my opinion.
Keith
 
I have explained that earlier in the thread. Here it is: I face a challenge with finding suitable stands for the Genelecs. The Genelec 8000-450 Triol Stand costs around £1200 for a pair. The 8000-400 is quite large, making smaller monitors like the 8340 look disproportionate. The 8000-409 stands, designed primarily for desktop setups, have a minimum height of 95cm, which isn't ideal for my living room. This is why I'm considering wall-mounting the smaller 8030s.
I have the K&M collaborative stand with Genelecs: it costs 145€ each and are thin and well built. Adjusting the distance to the wall maybe important for your room corrections.


 
I would never purport to be an expert at anything.
Even though I am ‘not very good’ at interpreting graphs I use them primarily to weed out poorly measuring designs, which saves a lot of time and expense.
My experience has been the better the measurements the more transparent the sound.
I would go as far to say that today I would not even consider a loudspeaker design unless it has been properly measured cea-2034/klippel.
Neumann is one of the few brands I do not have direct experience of but Amir’s measurements of their 420 appear to me to be excellent and they would definitely go on my ‘possibles’ list.
Sadly as a retailer I actually have to purchase stock before I listen to them, as a ‘punter’ I would always recommend insisting on a home evaluation.
I often hear poorly measuring loudspeakers nothing I have heard as led me to re-assess my opinion.
Keith
Personally, I wouldn't consider any other speakers than those measured by Klippel and with a high score. The KH150 have a score of 6.9, and are probably best-measuring loudspeakers available within my budget.
What I was trying to convey in my posts is that, after three months of listening with headphones, I've come to appreciate the intimacy and freedom of movement they offer, as opposed to sitting in front of a pair of loudspeakers. For solo watching and listening, headphones combined with my MacBook or iPhone are my preferred choice. I now only need speakers for watching movies with my family and for occasional music playback.
Given this, I'm starting to think that the £2200 Neumanns might be overkill for my requirements. Perhaps I should consider something that measures well but is priced well below £1000. Examples include the Elac Debut Reference DBR62 or Revel M16 with a Yamaha amp. In fact, I could get a Yamaha A-S501 with KEF Q350 for £650.
 
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I have the K&M collaborative stand with Genelecs: it costs 145€ each and are thin and well built. Adjusting the distance to the wall maybe important for your room corrections.


I am aware of these stands, but I wouldn't want them in my living room. Genelecs are nightmare to integrate with living room decor. The best Genelec setups I've seen have the speakers placed on either side of a TV on a long bench or TV unit.

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You cannot use objective arguments, because you consider they are not enough valid.
It's the KH120 not the KH120II and I can go into details. The tweeter has an about 17kHz resonance which is dispersed with a plastic sticker thing and I could hear the resonance. The DI has wiggles from 1kHz to about 3.5Hz which provide the opposite of relaxed sound and the waveguide doesn't provide a good behavior at around 4 Hz which never sounds right. On top the Bassreflex is kind of a one note bass which isn't good but doesn't bother me that much with that speaker.


I would never purport to be an expert at anything.
Even though I am ‘not very good’ at interpreting graphs I use them primarily to weed out poorly measuring designs, which saves a lot of time and expense.
My experience has been the better the measurements the more transparent the sound.
I would go as far to say that today I would not even consider a loudspeaker design unless it has been properly measured cea-2034/klippel.
Neumann is one of the few brands I do not have direct experience of but Amir’s measurements of their 420 appear to me to be excellent and they would definitely go on my ‘possibles’ list.
Sadly as a retailer I actually have to purchase stock before I listen to them, as a ‘punter’ I would always recommend insisting on a home evaluation.
I often hear poorly measuring loudspeakers nothing I have heard as led me to re-assess my opinion.
Keith
I see where you are coming from, I can only recommend to be more open. Harman does the research you are strictly following but if you have a look at many Harman JBL and so on loudspeakers, they themselves doesn't follow that strictly the (old) research. Real blind listening test is the one and only benchmark and Harman is doing them for (all?) of their speakers against competitors.

For example I would choose the JBL LSR 305 over the older KH120 anytime. In a blind test I would also bet on the LSR 305 even if it has also some downsides and was less expensive.
 
I believe in measurements the measurements correlate to sound quality, in my time I have made a point to try everything.
Good measurements equals transparent sound.
I understand that if you prefer effects…
Keith
 
It's the KH120 not the KH120II and I can go into details. The tweeter has an about 17kHz resonance which is dispersed with a plastic sticker thing and I could hear the resonance. The DI has wiggles from 1kHz to about 3.5Hz which provide the opposite of relaxed sound and the waveguide doesn't provide a good behavior at around 4 Hz which never sounds right. On top the Bassreflex is kind of a one note bass which isn't good but doesn't bother me that much with that speaker.



I see where you are coming from, I can only recommend to be more open. Harman does the research you are strictly following but if you have a look at many Harman JBL and so on loudspeakers, they themselves doesn't follow that strictly the (old) research. Real blind listening test is the one and only benchmark and Harman is doing them for (all?) of their speakers against competitors.

For example I would choose the JBL LSR 305 over the older KH120 anytime. In a blind test I would also bet on the LSR 305 even if it has also some downsides and was less expensive.
I think you’re joking, the Neumann kh 120 ii (I don’t know the first version) has the best freq curve I’ve seen in my life, little wiggles don’t mean anything. If you dislike this region with a minor EQ is solved.

I suscribe what is written on the above paragraph, when a speaker is flat (or transparent as it was mentioned) you can make it sound as you want. Other criteria are just subjective, if you dislike KH 120 (as me, I preferred the Genelec but have no arguments to defend my choice) you cannot criticize it by any argument over your personal choice.

We have the chance that two of the best ever constructed 5 inch speakers are under 700€ each, including amp… what you can have is more SPL or more bass in bigger speakers but today are unbeatable
 
I am aware of these stands, but I wouldn't want them in my living room. Genelecs are nightmare to integrate with living room decor. The best Genelec setups I've seen have the speakers placed on either side of a TV on a long bench or TV unit.

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I see, well I don’t have anything to say in decoration field: if I was me I would prefer selling the middle console and replacing it for a smaller one to make place to the speakers :)

But because I’m a disaster and my house looks like if an explosion took place in a cable factory, I will only add that isopods doesn’t decouple well the vibration to the wood and you will have a lot of reflections in this setups. In this case, wall can be the lesser evil
 
I’ll take a picture of my setup tomorrow when the lighting is better. I’ve spent the last few hours in front of my system and really enjoyed it. It seems like I’m slowly recovering from the absence of the loudspeakers.
 
That seems quite clean as audio space, but I don’t understand what you want to improve. Those are 120 or 150s?
These are KH150. Initially, I was deciding between Genelecs and Neumanns, but now that I have the Neumanns (an overkill for what I need?), I'm thinking whether to keep them or opt for something cheaper that still meets my requirements. As I mentioned, I can get Yamaha A-S501 and Kef Q350 for £650, or Revels M16 or Elac's with the Yamaha amp (all well below £1000).
 
These are KH150. Initially, I was deciding between Genelecs and Neumanns, but now that I have the Neumanns (an overkill for what I need?), I'm thinking whether to keep them or opt for something cheaper that still meets my requirements. As I mentioned, I can get Yamaha A-S501 and Kef Q350 for £650, or Revels M16 or Elac's with the Yamaha amp (all well below £1000).
There are way inferior to Neumann’s, but as mentioned before you only use them occasionally for music.
 
I can get Yamaha A-S501 and Kef Q350 for £650, or Revels M16 or Elac's with the Yamaha amp (all well below £1000).
All speakers you mentioned sound differently. They have different strengths and weaknesses which you can hear and which are rooted in the technical details, like a coaxial driver or a lower or higher amount of intermodulation distortion, a better or worse cabinet in terms of unwanted sound transmission (which is frequency depended) and many many other details.

As I mentioned earlier. Take your Neumanns to a HiFi dealer and compare them to some other speakers. Include tower speaker since they can provide a different sound because of the different interaction with the floor reflection and some other details. And be open to some speakers which doesn't provide a textbook perfect on axis frequency response. They might provide a sounding you like or other strength which overweight the weaknesses.

As an analogy: even if you compare rollercoaster in all technical details for several years, you won't understand the excitement of a looping or a helix if you never ride a coaster with these features. With the experience of a single looping and a single helix you can imagine if you will like a coaster with a faster helix but no looping but you can't be sure until you rode such a coaster. The more coasters you rode the better you can connect the technical knowledge with your (potential) excitement of riding one. But in the end you always have to ride the specific coaster to be sure.
 
These are KH150. Initially, I was deciding between Genelecs and Neumanns, but now that I have the Neumanns (an overkill for what I need?), I'm thinking whether to keep them or opt for something cheaper that still meets my requirements. As I mentioned, I can get Yamaha A-S501 and Kef Q350 for £650, or Revels M16 or Elac's with the Yamaha amp (all well below £1000).
The Revels M16 are interesting, I’ve red the Amir’s review of them… also the Elac DBR 62

Probably are the best of the four mentioned for the price, the amp seems good also.
 
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I honestly think the Neumanns are overkill as TV speakers and for occasional background listening (radio, podcasts, and quiet music). I still have a few days left in the return window and am reconsidering their validity in our living room. Maybe a pair of Apple HomePods or a Sonos soundbar would fit the bill better. With either Sonos or HomePods, I could easily set up a multiroom system down the line.

No one in the family sits for extended periods in front of the TV or speakers to appreciate the high quality of Neumanns. Given this, I feel they are overkill, and the money could be better spent elsewhere trading sound quality for convenience. After prolonged use of headphones, I now appreciate the freedom of movement and the intimacy of listening they offer. I can do things while keeping my podcasts and music close to my ears, which is a huge benefit. I never thought I'd say this, but I now prefer headphones to loudspeakers.

The beauty of HomePods is their portability—I could easily unplug them from the TV and move them to another room or kitchen. We currently have a JBL Extreme Bluetooth speaker, and I find myself using it more often (when not using headphones) because I can simply grab it and take it with me to another room, continuing to listen.
This convenience actually gave me the idea that a multiroom system might be what we really need in our house.
Given my situation, I'm wondering what people think: should I go for a Sonos soundbar or a pair of Apple HomePods or something else?
 
Ultimately, I decided to keep the Neumanns. They are fantastic speakers for watching movies, playing background music when people come over, or simply enjoying music while studying; like today, I was sitting in front of them, listening to King Crimson, Kimiko Kasai, and Mozart Piano Concertos by Kristian Bezuidenhout with the Freiburger Barockorchester. I've registered the speakers on the Neumann website and consider them a long-term investment. The Wiim Pro Plus has also arrived. Excited to set it up.
 
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