Living room system based on Genelec or Neumann.

[Cecill]

I'm curious about your perspective on listening to headphones for an extended period and then switching to a lounge system. Do you enjoy both equally, or do you appreciate each for different qualities?

 

[LeftCoastTim]

I'm curious about your perspective on listening to headphones for an extended period and then switching to a lounge system. Do you enjoy both equally, or do you appreciate each for different qualities?

I found headphones are always more immediate, and more detailed. After all, the sound is coming right next to your ears!

This is the reason why headphones were recommended for ABX tests of lossy audio codecs (or any audio distortion tests), oh so many decades ago. People had easier time finding artifacts than listening on speakers, high quality or not.

Lounge speakers almost always need room mode correction. That's why Amir always adds them in his speaker reviews because he knows what his room does, and it's not a fair evaluation of speakers without it.

But before jumping in and buying calibration mics, you can try the following:
* Place the speakers about 1.5ft (0.5m) away from any walls.
* Place your listening chair at about in the middle of the room (between 1/3 and 2/3 in from the walls).

This should let you hear the speakers in your room, without the room modes.

 

[Miguelón]

I personally prefer Genelec sound vs Neumann’s though I never listened to KH 150 (but had at home KH 120 ii and 8030C for comparison).

The advantage of 8030C plus F Two combo is you have a nearly full range system for same price than a >40 Hz one without subwoofer. Is not any doubt that 8030C and sub have the highest score.

I went to G Three (home version of 8030C with both RCA and XLR inputs), because integration with WiiM Ultra is the most simple as possible. Later on I will add a F Two if a downward firing 8 inches cone doesn’t make an earthquake at my neighbors under floor …

 

[MattHooper]

For me being able to hear my 2 channel (speakers) system after being stuck with headphones for months would be an utter relief

 

[Waxx]

I can't listen to headphones for long, i get ear fatigue in minutes with those. I'm sure it's me and not the headphones that i listen to, but give me speakers or no music...

 

[Miguelón]

I can't listen to headphones for long, i get ear fatigue in minutes with those. I'm sure it's me and not the headphones that i listen to, but give me speakers or no music...

I suffer the same “syndrome”, doesn’t matter the EQ or the headphones type.

 

[test1223]

I'm in a bit of a conundrum. The Neumanns arrived today. I've unpacked them, set them up on stands, and they've been playing for the last three hours. For the past three months, I've been listening to music, movies, and podcasts exclusively on headphones. I've read a lot on ASR about how distance from monitors affects sound quality and the importance of room acoustics.

After these three months, I'm not as satisfied with the Neumanns as I was earlier this year when I first had them. I think this is largely due to the higher fidelity sound I've been experiencing through the headphones. The headphones also reach lower frequencies than the Neumanns, and everything sounds just right.

I'm finding the sound from my various headphones to be much more engaging and immersive. I think I might just get some cheaper speakers for TV and background music instead.

You listening distance is probably to high and your placement of the speakers and listening positions aren't good. Almost all small speaker like the KH 150 are only very good with listening distances of about 1m. For 3 m or even more you need much bigger speakers to get more direct sound and room acoustics get much more important.

In addition, the sound signature of many monitors isn't that entertaining but rather revealing and unpleasant with a lot of music. And the Neumann speakers are more on the unpleasant side. I wasn't able to fix that with the older KH 120 and eq. The KH 150 might be "better" in that regard.

Here at ASR a lot of theory driven people hang around, the rather low amount of practical experience often results in rather odd recommendations like Neumann speakers for enjoyment. A lot of people can't relate to that kind of speakers especially for every day TV usage. Most of the TV internal speakers are tuned and engineered to be much more inoffensive and use a loudness function and such stuff.

It is much more important to find out what direction it right for you than spending time on the internet reading stuff. Go out and listen to some very different hifi speakers in different rooms and with different listings distances. You will probably find the right direction for your setup.

 

[Miguelón]

You listening distance is probably to high and your placement of the speakers and listening positions aren't good. Almost all small speaker like the KH 150 are only very good with listening distances of about 1m. For 3 m or even more you need much bigger speakers to get more direct sound and room acoustics get much more important.

In addition, the sound signature of many monitors isn't that entertaining but rather revealing and unpleasant with a lot of music. And the Neumann speakers are more on the unpleasant side. I wasn't able to fix that with the older KH 120 and eq. The KH 150 might be "better" in that regard.

Here at ASR a lot of theory driven people hang around, the rather low amount of practical experience often results in rather odd recommendations like Neumann speakers for enjoyment. A lot of people can't relate to that kind of speakers especially for every day TV usage. Most of the TV internal speakers are tuned and engineered to be much more inoffensive and use a loudness function and such stuff.

It is much more important to find out what direction it right for you than spending time on the internet reading stuff. Go out and listen to some very different hifi speakers in different rooms and with different listings distances. You will probably find the right direction for your setup.

I’m not agree, comprehensive and applicable information can take sometime to achieve, but finally is better to understand that to not understand.

Hifi market is full of marketing tactics and crap, they can try to sell you expensive cables or supposed “signatures” as you wrote.

Science have something to tell about speakers: an anechoic flat on axis frequency response and a smooth dispersion will be roughly the goal to achieve, as well as low distortion and noise.

No rule dictates taste in matter of differences between in room response, Neumann’s 120 can be as nice to listen as other monitors, I didn’t like them but many people do.

Finally recommended distance is not a very useful information since it depends on the loudness you prefer: I’m perfectly fine with little 8030 (even more, I can feel happy with the 8020 which are on other room) Genelec monitors at 3 meters (they lack bass but this is a work to the subwoofer), till the point I use to listen to only 1 speaker to ambient music and only reserve both to dedicated sessions.

 

[Purité Audio]

You listening distance is probably to high and your placement of the speakers and listening positions aren't good. Almost all small speaker like the KH 150 are only very good with listening distances of about 1m. For 3 m or even more you need much bigger speakers to get more direct sound and room acoustics get much more important.

In addition, the sound signature of many monitors isn't that entertaining but rather revealing and unpleasant with a lot of music. And the Neumann speakers are more on the unpleasant side. I wasn't able to fix that with the older KH 120 and eq. The KH 150 might be "better" in that regard.

Here at ASR a lot of theory driven people hang around, the rather low amount of practical experience often results in rather odd recommendations like Neumann speakers for enjoyment. A lot of people can't relate to that kind of speakers especially for every day TV usage. Most of the TV internal speakers are tuned and engineered to be much more inoffensive and use a loudness function and such stuff.

It is much more important to find out what direction it right for you than spending time on the internet reading stuff. Go out and listen to some very different hifi speakers in different rooms and with different listings distances. You will probably find the right direction for your setup.

Really fine loudspeakers just sound transparent, I find transparency extremely enjoyable, there are poor measuring loudspeakers, I would avoid them.
Keith

 

[bumblebee657]

After these three months, I'm not as satisfied with the Neumanns as I was earlier this year when I first had them. I think this is largely due to the higher fidelity sound I've been experiencing through the headphones.

To me that clearly sounds like you are sitting way too far from your speakers. You have to sit as close as possible to them to get that super detailed and immersive headphones feeling. I wouldn't use the KH 150 at over 1m. I know people here on ASR usually say that nearrfield speakers can be use at any distance. Well, they can, but you'll sacrifice a lot of sound quality.

 

[test1223]

I’m not agree, comprehensive and applicable information can take sometime to achieve, but finally is better to understand that to not understand.

Hifi market is full of marketing tactics and crap, they can try to sell you expensive cables or supposed “signatures” as you wrote.

Science have something to tell about speakers: an anechoic flat on axis frequency response and a smooth dispersion will be roughly the goal to achieve, as well as low distortion and noise.

No rule dictates taste in matter of differences between in room response, Neumann’s 120 can be as nice to listen as other monitors, I didn’t like them but many people do.

In the end the real preference score is the one and only important goal. It can only be determined with actual listing test with that individual person in that individual room with his music and at his listening positions.

Take the Neumann speakers to your local hi-fi dealer and listen to some different speaker designs in comparison for a start. More beaming less beaming, horn, dipol, electrostatic, more or less neutral, coax or multi way system. There are so many choices and all effect the sound in some way.

Without some practical experience you will never get a better sound for you.

Really fine loudspeakers just sound transparent

There is not a single transparent loudspeaker. Have a look at the differences in the spinorama measurements alone from some "good" loudspeakers. They all sound different so which of them is the transparent one? in addition to the differences of the spinorama measurements all other differences come on top...

 

[Miguelón]

In the end the real preference score is the one and only important goal. It can only be determined with actual listing test with that individual person in that individual room with his music and at his listening positions.

Take the Neumann speakers to your local hi-fi dealer and listen to some different speaker designs in comparison for a start. More beaming less beaming, horn, dipol, electrostatic, more or less neutral, coax or multi way system. There are so many choices and all effect the sound in some way.

Without some practical experience you will never get a better sound for you.


There is not a single transparent loudspeaker. Have a look at the differences in the spinorama measurements alone from some "good" loudspeakers. They all sound different so which of them is the transparent one? in addition to the differences of the spinorama measurements all other differences come on top...

Here you can look measurements (as spinorama, reflections graphs) will predict your in room response with some accuracy.

I went to many hifi shops before, and never could have the lesser idea of how the speaker will sound in my room. For me was a huge waste of time and money.

Is true that they are some different solutions, like coaxial drivers for example or electrostatic, but all are made to achieve same goal: smoothness across the frequency spectrum and across angles.

I think “transparency” as was mentioned, was used in the term of flat anechoic response in which Neumann’s has no contenders, but I agree there are other variables.

 

[Purité Audio]

In the end the real preference score is the one and only important goal. It can only be determined with actual listing test with that individual person in that individual room with his music and at his listening positions.

Take the Neumann speakers to your local hi-fi dealer and listen to some different speaker designs in comparison for a start. More beaming less beaming, horn, dipol, electrostatic, more or less neutral, coax or multi way system. There are so many choices and all effect the sound in some way.

Without some practical experience you will never get a better sound for you.


There is not a single transparent loudspeaker. Have a look at the differences in the spinorama measurements alone from some "good" loudspeakers. They all sound different so which of them is the transparent one? in addition to the differences of the spinorama measurements all other differences come on top...

Firstly learn what loudspeaker measurements mean and how they correlate to actual sound, once you understand them you can quickly discard really poor designs purely from their measurements.
All the really fine measuring loudspeakers I have here sound pretty similar, there are differences with dispersion but in terms of tonality/timbre they are pretty much identical.
Contemporary designs can also of course be adjusted to taste, there are far too many uninformed old wives tales regarding the sound of monitors and loudspeakers whatever you choose to call it a good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker.
Keith

 

[test1223]

Firstly learn what loudspeaker measurements mean and how they correlate to actual sound, once you understand them you can quickly discard really poor designs purely from their measurements.
All the really fine measuring loudspeakers I have here sound pretty similar, there are differences with dispersion but in terms of tonality/timbre they are pretty much identical.
Contemporary designs can also of course be adjusted to taste, there are far too many uninformed old wives tales regarding the sound of monitors and loudspeakers whatever you choose to call it a good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker.
Keith

I know a lot about spinorama measurements and its correlation to preference. Firstly almost no one can interpret the graphs correctly. No offense but, I guess you are also not very good at it. Secondly even the not so bad calculation of the predicted preferences score has major flaws, especially if you compare multiple different good speaker designs. In the past the score was much more meaningful since the average speaker design was not that good.

Have you ever back tested your discarding practice with a speaker which is highly regarded by listeners despite the not usual measurements? I guess you have not?

So would you put the neumann speaker in the category of inoffensive and enjoyable for casual TV usage? As I mentioned even with eq the KH 120 is not that speaker and I guess the KH 150 is neither.

Yes you can equalize some speakers to some extent but without major knowledge you won't get that far. The task to transform a rather offensive monitor into an relaxed sounding speaker is challenging and to my experience impossible with some specific DIs.
On top of that I would not recommend anyone to do that without this major warning. Since you need knowledge, time and there is a higher chance to fail with your attempt. The logical way is to start with a more fitting speaker.

 

[ehabheikal]

Hi ASR Community,

I might soon be able to set up my hi-fi audio system back in the living room and have a few questions about my options. My speaker choice is limited to Genelecs and Neumanns, as I've previously owned the 8030C and KH150 models. I have two setups in mind:

1. Neumann KH150: On stands, paired with a Wiim Pro Plus for connecting to the TV and accessing the Plex server. Price: £2470
2. Genelec 8030C: Mounted on the wall on either side of the TV, with a Genelec F Two acting as a remote-controlled preamp and hub for connecting to the TV. I would access the Plex server through the TV app. Price: £2590

Which setup would you recommend, and are there any considerations I should keep in mind?

Thank you for your insights!

Go down to kh120ii and add a sub with the money u saved
And wiim is an amazing streamer, dont miss out on it.

Btw i have kh80 dsp with 2 yamaha studio 8 inch subs in a medium but domed room working with tv and music and it is great to my ears

 

[Chrispy]

Hi ASR Community,

I might soon be able to set up my hi-fi audio system back in the living room and have a few questions about my options. My speaker choice is limited to Genelecs and Neumanns, as I've previously owned the 8030C and KH150 models. I have two setups in mind:

1. Neumann KH150: On stands, paired with a Wiim Pro Plus for connecting to the TV and accessing the Plex server. Price: £2470
2. Genelec 8030C: Mounted on the wall on either side of the TV, with a Genelec F Two acting as a remote-controlled preamp and hub for connecting to the TV. I would access the Plex server through the TV app. Price: £2590

Which setup would you recommend, and are there any considerations I should keep in mind?

Thank you for your insights!

Why would you wall-mount speakers?

 

[Miguelón]

I know a lot about spinorama measurements and its correlation to preference. Firstly almost no one can interpret the graphs correctly. No offense but, I guess you are also not very good at it. Secondly even the not so bad calculation of the predicted preferences score has major flaws, especially if you compare multiple different good speaker designs. In the past the score was much more meaningful since the average speaker design was not that good.

Have you ever back tested your discarding practice with a speaker which is highly regarded by listeners despite the not usual measurements? I guess you have not?

So would you put the neumann speaker in the category of inoffensive and enjoyable for casual TV usage? As I mentioned even with eq the KH 120 is not that speaker and I guess the KH 150 is neither.

Yes you can equalize some speakers to some extent but without major knowledge you won't get that far. The task to transform a rather offensive monitor into an relaxed sounding speaker is challenging and to my experience impossible with some specific DIs.
On top of that I would not recommend anyone to do that without this major warning. Since you need knowledge, time and there is a higher chance to fail with your attempt. The logical way is to start with a more fitting speaker.

This type of comments are turning in circles: you consider (subjectively) that for any reason KH 120 ii is not a good speaker for listening.

You cannot use objective arguments, because you consider they are not enough valid.

Objective measurement are well correlated with human taste, of course in average, but has been verified many times. Hi-Fi speakers has no hidden secrets, if you cover a full range frequency in a good way all speakers will sound really similar except from minor deviations.

I had at home kh 120 ii, kef L50, Genelec 8030, Dali (I don’t remember the model), Bowers & Wilkins and a long etcetera: which I have now is, not surprisingly, one of the two measuring best.

 

[Miguelón]

Hi ASR Community,

I might soon be able to set up my hi-fi audio system back in the living room and have a few questions about my options. My speaker choice is limited to Genelecs and Neumanns, as I've previously owned the 8030C and KH150 models. I have two setups in mind:

1. Neumann KH150: On stands, paired with a Wiim Pro Plus for connecting to the TV and accessing the Plex server. Price: £2470
2. Genelec 8030C: Mounted on the wall on either side of the TV, with a Genelec F Two acting as a remote-controlled preamp and hub for connecting to the TV. I would access the Plex server through the TV app. Price: £2590

Which setup would you recommend, and are there any considerations I should keep in mind?

Thank you for your insights!

My vote to the 8030C plus F Two (is also my personal gear, waiting for the subwoofer soon), they have a very good price and measurements.

I recommend you the G Three instead 8030C (they are the same internally) because of the RCA plus XLR inputs. With hot signals as 4V balanced you have also the choice of reducing sensitivity to 86 dB to better match the DAC.

Floor stands will have better results than wall mount, the Genelecs slim columns are not so expensive than Triol and very solid.

 

[Cecill]

Why would you wall-mount speakers?

I have explained that earlier in the thread. Here it is: I face a challenge with finding suitable stands for the Genelecs. The Genelec 8000-450 Triol Stand costs around £1200 for a pair. The 8000-400 is quite large, making smaller monitors like the 8340 look disproportionate. The 8000-409 stands, designed primarily for desktop setups, have a minimum height of 95cm, which isn't ideal for my living room. This is why I'm considering wall-mounting the smaller 8030s.

 

[Frank Dernie]

But before jumping in and buying calibration mics, you can try the following:
* Place the speakers about 1.5ft (0.5m) away from any walls.
* Place your listening chair at about in the middle of the room (between 1/3 and 2/3 in from the walls).

This should let you hear the speakers in your room, without the room modes.

I am surprised somebody posted this.
A listening position in the middle of the room is where the effect of room modes is at its highest.
Putting speakers near a wall excites the room modes most, (though that position may make compensation simpler).

What you suggest here will expose the room fundamental modes the most possible.

If you want to minimise the influence of the fundamental room modes without using compensation, or a layout to minimise the magnitude of correction needed, a listening position around ⅓ or ⅔ of the room length is preferable and speaker positions 1/5 or 1/7 the width and length of the room is effective (I have used this as a starting point in rooms for almost 50 years). Compensation still smooths the sound you get but it doesn't need such extreme values.

The additional benefit is room compensation only really works well at one listening position and laid out like this the room can sound pretty good over a wide listening area with compensation off, so good for multiple listeners.