• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Live Unamplified Music Standard for Assessing Gear/System

Ron Party

Senior Member
CPH (Chief Prog Head)
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
416
Likes
575
Location
Oakland
I think it was one of the "subjectivist" luminaries who first stated that one should (must?) use the sound of live unamplified music as the standard by which evaluations should (must?) be made.

Put aside for the moment the fact that even a simple evaluation of this barometer instantly reveals it is a swiss cheese methodology, i.e., it is full of holes, e.g., not falsifiable, not subject to controls, etc.

I'm more interested in the live unamplified music part. I've always had trouble with it. Why unamplified? I get it that, for example, an electric guitar can be made to sound any number of ways. But so what? Does this disqualify progressive rock as invalid source material? It's OK to use Charles Mingus but not Bootsy Collins? It's OK to use Tommy Emmanuel but not Jimi? Sviatoslav Richter but not Keith Emerson? Itzhak Perlman but not Jean-Luc Ponty? I say BS.

 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,329
Likes
12,284
Uh-oh....
 

Chaconne

Active Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Messages
153
Likes
273
I evaluate components based on their ability to reproduce the sound of live, unamplified music, but that's only because live, unamplified music is the kind of music I love—and listen to—most. If someone else loves another kind of music most, she or he is more than free to evaluate gear based on that. But I don't think either camp has the right to declare their own way as the only way. (Even though MY way is the best! :))
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,446
Likes
7,955
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Does that exist? Like a raw microphone feed with no processing whatsoever?

Feels like a really bad business model for whoever is doing that.
 

Chaconne

Active Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Messages
153
Likes
273
Does that exist? Like a raw microphone feed with no processing whatsoever?

Feels like a really bad business model for whoever is doing that.
I was thinking purely about the way the music sounds, not the way it was recorded.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,511
Likes
25,344
Location
Alfred, NY
I think it was one of the "subjectivist" luminaries who first stated that one should (must?) use the sound of live unamplified music as the standard by which evaluations should (must?) be made.

Put aside for the moment the fact that even a simple evaluation of this barometer instantly reveals it is a swiss cheese methodology, i.e., it is full of holes, e.g., not falsifiable, not subject to controls, etc.

I'm more interested in the live unamplified music part. I've always had trouble with it. Why unamplified? I get it that, for example, an electric guitar can be made to sound any number of ways. But so what? Does this disqualify progressive rock as invalid source material? It's OK to use Charles Mingus but not Bootsy Collins? It's OK to use Tommy Emmanuel but not Jimi? Sviatoslav Richter but not Keith Emerson? Itzhak Perlman but not Jean-Luc Ponty? I say BS.

PA systems is generally what's meant, I think.
 

Vacceo

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 9, 2022
Messages
2,669
Likes
2,821
If you want to test gear, why is Paco de Lucía or John Williams playing Asturias better than Muhammed Suiçmez playing Seven?
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,329
Likes
12,284
If you want to test gear, why is Paco de Lucía or John Williams playing Asturias better than Muhammed Suiçmez playing Seven?

It's not, necessarily. If you like Necrophagist test the speakers with that type of music. If you like John Williams, test with that. If you like both, test them with both.

My speakers had to sound good (to me) for everything from jazz, to orchestral soundtracks, to electronica, and definitely, with Rush! :)
 

Vacceo

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 9, 2022
Messages
2,669
Likes
2,821
It's not, necessarily. If you like Necrophagist test the speakers with that type of music. If you like John Williams, test with that. If you like both, test them with both.

My speakers had to sound good (to me) for everything from jazz, to orchestral soundtracks, to electronica, and definitely, with Rush! :)
I'd say the mark of a competent system is playing all the above true to the source.

In fact, one of the tests I did way back involved playing a 30's recording of a political speech because the voice gets a very particular distortion. If the distortion is there, the system is working transparently.
 

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,153
Likes
2,416
To evaluate high fidelity reproduction of a recording, you need to have a baseline you are familiar with...

An acoustic instrument, unamplified is a great baseline, with complex harmonics....
Any studio recording concoction, good as they are, cannot be used as a baseline for high fidelity as you have no aural baseline.

The key to this is familiarity with the baseline

You could record members of your family - then play it back on your system - it is a valid test... but it will (of course) also be testing your mic/recorder/recording technique.

If the result has good verisimilitude compared to the "original" (ie: your family members speaking in the same room) - then the setup is indeed "High Fidelity"

This is completely divorced from whether the setup "sounds good"

Klipsch in the early 20th century, used to run demo's of his Klipschorns with a live microphone feed from another room, where a performer was playing piano - and listeners were invited to move between the rooms and compare....

If what is recorded is an "amplified instrument" that you are equally familiar with - the same thing applies (no reason why it couldn't be a live mic feed from an electric guitar player with his amp...)

The key thing is to remove variables - so that the baseline is something you are aurally familiar with, and can immediately identify flaws on.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,329
Likes
12,284
I'd say the mark of a competent system is playing all the above true to the source.

Agreed.

In fact, one of the tests I did way back involved playing a 30's recording of a political speech because the voice gets a very particular distortion. If the distortion is there, the system is working transparently.

I have some tracks with a bit of distortion on the vocals, and I like to see how a system handles that as well.

Ultimately, for me, all concerns are subservient to my main goal: I just want to like the sound of whatever I buy.

You could record members of your family - then play it back on your system - it is a valid test... but it will (of course) also be testing your mic/recorder/recording technique.

That's what I used to do, and I'd use the recordings to do live vs reproduced comparisons with various speakers (and sometimes use the tracks when auditioning speakers in the stores). It was enlightening. I tended to find that the speakers that sounded generally "right" to my ears with voices and acoustic instruments were the ones that did best in those comparisons.
 
OP
Ron Party

Ron Party

Senior Member
CPH (Chief Prog Head)
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
416
Likes
575
Location
Oakland
Those who dogmatically adhere to this as the only valid methodology for equipment/system evaluation seemingly ignore the fact that all live, unamplified music is not born equal.

Take the acoustic guitar, for example. What kind of strings are being played? What techniques are being used? What is the shape of the guitar? What is the size of the guitar? With what wood is the guitar made? Are there inlays in the neck? Paco De Lucía (who I saw when he played that infamous show with Al D and John M) will sound very different, at least to those in the know, depending upon the answers to these kinds of questions.

Of course, anyone is free to use whatever methodology floats their boat. But this purported evaluation standard does not withstand scrutiny and IMO it is no more valid than live, amplified music.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,329
Likes
12,284
Those who dogmatically adhere to this as the only valid methodology for equipment/system evaluation seemingly ignore the fact that all live, unamplified music is not born equal.

How about a non-dogmatic approach? For instance, I look to certain characteristics I hear in "real life sound" and seek some of those in reproduced sound. That is, the aspects that I find can actually be reproduced to a degree I find pleasing. Works for me.

Take the acoustic guitar, for example. What kind of strings are being played? What techniques are being used? What is the shape of the guitar? What is the size of the guitar? With what wood is the guitar made? Are there inlays in the neck? Paco De Lucía (who I saw when he played that infamous show with Al D and John M) will sound very different, at least to those in the know, depending upon the answers to these kinds of questions.

I'm pretty sure The Absolute Sound crowd (e.g. Harry Pearson) was aware of that. What they tended to do was try to identify certain aspects of "real acoustic sounds - voices instruments, symphonic etc - in real space" and look for those aspects in sound reproduction. They were continually aware, from what I read, of the gulf between real and reproduced, so they were cheering on gear that got "closer" rather than "further away" from the real thing. Sort of like hoping for a general "gestalt" of live music, in that sense.

So it's not like you have to always know precisely what any particular acoustic guitar sounds like to have a general idea of how acoustic guitars tend to sound in real life, vs tend to sound on hi-fi systems.

As someone who has a habit of listening for those differences when I hear live sound, I'm sympathetic with that view. There seem to be aspects I hear with live sound sources that are pretty reliably different from what I normally hear through sound systems.


Of course, anyone is free to use whatever methodology floats their boat. But this purported evaluation standard does not withstand scrutiny and IMO it is no more valid than live, amplified music.

It's certainly an interesting question: can amplified music - Rock, Blues, Pop, Prog :) - be used as a sonic touchstone as well?

In principle I don't see why not. I mean, in principle if you see a band in a club, you could replicate that PA system and playing their music through it, get a closer approximation of their live sound than you are likely to get through some KEF LS50s.

On the other hand, there's a certain level of power and scale to concert and even club PA systems that few if any domestic gear could approach.

So I don't know.

Personally I'm not trying to replicate PA sound systems. I played through enough of them to render my hearing fragile as it is.

That said, I've occasionally got a slight "reminiscent of concert sound" vibe when listening on my 2 channel system. For instance Rush's All The World's a Stage - the entire wall behind my speakers can seem to melt away, leaving a vast soundstage like I'm peering through the concert hall, and the sound of the instruments has that PA tone. Of course it doesn't come anywhere near the acoustic presence of Rush live. But there's something reminiscent about it enough to sort of sink in to the illusion. And that's really what I want most of the time - an illusion, with aspects of the real thing, but not all. Like watching war movie like Saving Private Ryan. There are all sorts of aspects that can "feel real" about watching it on my projector with surround sound.
But I sure as hell don't REALLY want guns and explosions and tanks to be as loud as they actually are! I'd be deaf after one war movie!
 

Philbo King

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 30, 2022
Messages
669
Likes
876
Recordings - Chesky Records were a sort of reference for acoustic recordings of jazz. And these recordings do have an amazing 'in the room' realism.

Non-acoustic music almost always has EQ and compression (at a minimum) applied to every instrument, often with artificial echo, reverb, additional compression on the stereo mix . Not to say that is 'bad' per se, it is simply the state of the art for non-acoustic genres. And it is exceptionally rare that these recordings will give you that sense of 'the band is right there in the room' experience. Almost never...

They aren't intended to. They are using the performance, the mix, the effects, and panning to present the music in a specific way. In effect, they use the studio as a canvas upon which they paint their sonic picture and present the music in the best possible light using all the tools technology provides.

Non-acoustic performance sound through a PA -
This is almost always suboptimal. Aside from early 70s surround sound PAs used by Yes and Emerson, Lake & Palmer, it is ALWAYS mono to accomodate audience members listening from a wide variety of angles. Today the speakers in large venues are generally line-array speakers flown above the front of the stage and subwoofer arrays at ground level. And they work ok, but the sound in even the worlds best venues doesn't hold a candle to the sound quality you can get at home from even a fairly modest hifi setup. Trying to use PA concert sound as a reference for "how it should sound" is a red herring... It is rife with compromises even in the best possible case.
 
Last edited:

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,153
Likes
2,416
That said, I've occasionally got a slight "reminiscent of concert sound" vibe when listening on my 2 channel system. For instance Rush's All The World's a Stage - the entire wall behind my speakers can seem to melt away, leaving a vast soundstage like I'm peering through the concert hall, and the sound of the instruments has that PA tone. Of course it doesn't come anywhere near the acoustic presence of Rush live. But there's something reminiscent about it enough to sort of sink in to the illusion. And that's really what I want most of the time - an illusion, with aspects of the real thing, but not all. Like watching war movie like Saving Private Ryan. There are all sorts of aspects that can "feel real" about watching it on my projector with surround sound.
But I sure as hell don't REALLY want guns and explosions and tanks to be as loud as they actually are! I'd be deaf after one war movie!

When watching Movies with my son, Typical levels for movies are between 70db and 74db - when watching with my other half, more like 65db - and for both cases I am best off using the "Late night" listening mode (ie: compression) - so the peaks are not so dramatic.....

That's life in a/our household... compromises.

On my own I would listen at typically 74db with any compression turned off - but can only really do that when I have the house to myself.

When listening to Music, the average levels are probably a touch higher... but again only when I am alone... en famille, musac levels are more popular :(
 

Waxx

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2021
Messages
1,979
Likes
7,877
Location
Wodecq, Hainaut, Belgium
The best way (except measurements) to test gear is listening to a voice you know very well, and that you know it's recorded very well. I use an album of a friend who's voice is a reference to judge speakers a lot. I did record the voice myself, so i know how it was done. It works relative good for situations where i can't measure speakers to have a kind of evidence based id on how it sounds.

But unamplified music can sound in a lot of ways, depending on what instrument is used, how it's played, how it's recorded and mixed. The same guitar with the same strings in the same room with the same recording setup can sound very different from one player to the other. And that is with all instruments the case. It's not an objective reference, (nor is the voice i use), just maybe an indicator. Measurements tell the real story at the end.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,329
Likes
12,284
The best way (except measurements) to test gear is listening to a voice you know very well, and that you know it's recorded very well. I use an album of a friend who's voice is a reference to judge speakers a lot. I did record the voice myself, so i know how it was done. It works relative good for situations where i can't measure speakers to have a kind of evidence based id on how it sounds.

I agree that direct comparisons with the real thing would be the tightest way to evaluate things (which is why I actually did that sometimes).

But I also think that generalities can be found in the differences between live and reproduced. For instance voices, if I've been listening to half decent vocal recordings on my system sometimes afterwards I'll close my eyes and listen to my wife's, or my son's voice and just observe the difference. It doesn't really matter if I'd just been listening to male or female vocals on my system, the real voices both share characteristics the reproduced sound does not, in terms of the absolute sense of clarity, yet "relaxed" and organic detail, and especially the density and resonant character of the speaking voice that tells you unmistakably of it's presence.

Likewise, when I'm at audio shows and show-off vocal tracks are playing on a system, I'll close my eyes and compare to voices in the room (often someone is talking) and it's very enlightening, showing up the ways the reproduced voice sounds artificial.
 
Last edited:

Sokel

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 8, 2021
Messages
6,112
Likes
6,182
You mean electrically amplified,yes?
Because all instruments have their own personal amp,embedded.
Just some of them have to use electricity.
 

dasdoing

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
4,301
Likes
2,769
Location
Salvador-Bahia-Brasil

dasdoing

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
4,301
Likes
2,769
Location
Salvador-Bahia-Brasil
The key to this is familiarity with the baseline

You could record members of your family - then play it back on your system - it is a valid test... but it will (of course) also be testing your mic/recorder/recording technique.

very right.

also: slam you door, record it. play it back. slam it again. (also knock on door....or perhaps eve better; (let someone) knock on the speaker itself)
record hand-claps: they sound unatural pretty fast if something is off.
record a thunderstorm. play it back and compare to the real event.
 
Top Bottom