• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Live sound ain't always what it's cracked up to be...

LightninBoy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
712
Likes
1,458
Location
St. Paul, MN
I've always assumed that when audiophiles say their sonic target is a live event they mean live and unamplified. Otherwise it makes no sense. I don't know if that, however, is universally understood, particularly since non amplified live shows are rare to non-existent in mainstream music.

Personally, I love the sound of a rock band with only the vocals mic'd and amplified. Done right, with those Marshall guitar amps cranked to their sweet spot, it sounds glorious.
 

DSJR

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
3,312
Likes
4,425
Location
Suffolk Coastal, UK
I was there that night as well - I don't remember it being that loud, but then I grew up on Heathrow Airport's doorstep (literally, the southern perimeter road was five minutes walk away) so my concept of loud is probably a bit askew from most other peoples'.
We were down on the floor less than half way back I seem to remember. Certainly a night I'm glad I attended. I also attended a PF performance of The Wall there a few years later and the sound was so much better and not as 'loud' to me (I still plugged my ears with tissue though which helped a bit). Best sounding 'rock' gig I did was a King Crimson one at the RAH in 1994 or so - with a little eq in the bass (lift the 30hz a bit and duck the 120hz a bit, my ATC 100A's gave a very convincing 'realistic' facsimile of 'B'Boom' in my small living room when the neighbours were out :D

 

Robin L

Master Contributor
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
5,208
Likes
7,587
Location
1 mile east of Sleater Kinney Rd
Seems like the definition of "Live Music" here is amplified. That puts the audience at the mercy of the electronics. It can be very good [like all the Grateful Dead concerts I went to in the mid-1980s] or irresponsibly bad [Lindsay Buckingham at Tower Theater a few years back, ear-bleedingly loud in a smallish venue for no good reason.}

I've recorded many concerts of unamplified music. Weirdest acoustic for that sort of thing is Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. It is a great place to make a recording because of the ample reverb and the fact that there are few reflective surfaces near the performers. This give the impression of a very clear sound with reverb that supports the sound. But in audience's seats everything is awash in reverb that obscures, the sound has no real amplification from the room so the volume is weak, and the sound of the audience shuffling is often louder than the music. Another bad acoustic is Zellerbach Hall in Berkeley. Nothing specific, it just sounds bad. This building is a relatively early example of a venue meant for both unamplified and amplified music, a little bit too big to support pure acoustic sounds but easily overwhelmed by modern PA systems. There's a sense of everything being a bit too dry, a bit too harsh.

In fact, it's difficult to find a venue with the right combination of direct and reflected sound, lack of street noise and complexity of reverb for orchestral sound. Note how many venues intended for symphonic music have to updated/refurbished, like Lincoln Center being recast as David Geffen [ugh!] hall, to get around its nasty acoustics. One of the better sounding venues for chamber/small orchestra music in the San Francisco Bay Area is the First Congregational Church in Berkeley. Very good sound in the first ten rows and anywhere in the balcony. But there's a bus stop right outside the area where the musicians play. Recordings I've made there would inevitably have the buses announce their presence sometime during the concert.
 

ta240

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
1,357
Likes
2,653
I've always assumed that when audiophiles say their sonic target is a live event they mean live and unamplified. Otherwise it makes no sense. I don't know if that, however, is universally understood, particularly since non amplified live shows are rare to non-existent in mainstream music.

Personally, I love the sound of a rock band with only the vocals mic'd and amplified. Done right, with those Marshall guitar amps cranked to their sweet spot, it sounds glorious.

I guess that version of 'live' makes more sense. I've always thought the same thing as escksu about live performances being about the experience of being there, rather than the sound quality; the energy of the performers and the audience.

Without people specifying though; I still wonder if many are looking for the average concert sound from their home system. "play anything, just play it loud!"

At least around here there aren't that many performers that visit actual concert halls. If they aren't selling tons of tickets then it is usually an outside system cranked beyond any listenability or if they are big it is a sports arena with echoes.

I learned not to listen to the groups music on the way to the concert because that puts the sound too recent in my memory and makes the imperfections of the venue and their system stand out way more.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
Just before Covid I saw a concert with two famous pianists, so famous, I can't remember who they were (but they really were well respected classical musicians). It was high end dueling pianos. Beautiful pianos. Intimate setting in a fairly new venue that appeared to be properly designed. Sound quality was so important to them that they brought their own sound system and sound guy (I understand also responsible for ensuring the pianos in perfect working order). Their sound system was fairly simple, 4 large and expensive looking speakers (not standard concert gear), not sure about amplification. We had great seats, right in the middle, about 5 or 6 rows back at most.

The sound totally sucked. Perhaps the microphones were perfectly placed. Perhaps the speakers were amazing. It did not matter. The speakers were placed fairly wide on the stage (one can assume not to block the view of the pianists). Hence the sound we heard was from the speakers was way off axis coupled with whatever reflections (though I think the room controlled them well). Needless to say, it was pretty awful. Before the show started, they were "warming up" a bit without amplification. That sounded good, albeit not loud. Once the amplification was on, it was all down hill.
 

Spkrdctr

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 22, 2021
Messages
2,212
Likes
2,934
Back in the early 80's I was on tour with Dire Straits and I have to say the sound guy was fantastic and really knew his art. The band sounded very good to freaking fantastic at most venues. They did do one venue where the sound guy decided to turn it up to 11 just for fun and that was the worst sounding performance of the entire North American tour. Their concerts were not blow your ears off loud and the quality was very, very good for a live performance. Plus, their goal was always great sound. Mark had guitar solos that were pure perfection in sound quality. But, they didn't do half of what is done to the sound today. It was a simpler time back then and the band seriously cared about the sound. All of the other bands I met and listened to were not up to the quality of Dire Straits. Usually just too loud or too shrill. Having a true master on the sound board was worth every penny they spent. Plus they spent serious money on the sound board and associated equipment to make good sound. It was the entire package. I know Rick Denney understands the entire sound chain is important. I was blessed to hear when it came out fantastic!
 

BDWoody

Chief Cat Herder
Moderator
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
6,948
Likes
22,625
Location
Mid-Atlantic, USA. (Maryland)
Back in the early 80's I was on tour with Dire Straits and I have to say the sound guy was fantastic and really knew his art.

That's awesome...

They are way up on my list of favorite bands. From what little I know, I'm not surprised they had top notch sound people. I've always been impressed with their production quality...and Knopfler is simply brilliant.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
20,745
Likes
20,756
Location
Canada
Corrosion of Conformity in Vancouver was the de factO horrible concert for me. The sound was just a hash of noise.
 

levimax

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
2,348
Likes
3,462
Location
San Diego
In my experience the venue and it's acoustics and sound system are the biggest variable. I have never heard an "arena" concert that sounded very good to me. On the other hand their is a venue in San Diego called "Humpreys by the bay" which is an outdoor venue on the water which holds 1,295 people and has a great house sound system and every show I have attended there sounds fantastic.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
For arena concerts, I have heard Depeche Mode several times over the years. When I first saw them I had low expectations, thinking of them as a "synth" group. The sound quality was excellent though. Remembered another awful concert. New Order. Yes I am an 80's child! Talking Heads had great sound in the day. Peter Gabriel would sound good on a boom box sitting on the stage. Rod Stewart had great sound. U2 was consistently disappointing.
 

LightninBoy

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
712
Likes
1,458
Location
St. Paul, MN
I guess that version of 'live' makes more sense. I've always thought the same thing as escksu about live performances being about the experience of being there, rather than the sound quality; the energy of the performers and the audience.

Without people specifying though; I still wonder if many are looking for the average concert sound from their home system. "play anything, just play it loud!"

I agree with you that probably many who hear or mention the "target live sound" sentiment are assuming the typical concert sound.

That is unfortunate. As many in this thread point out, Live music is hit or miss at best from a pure sound perspective. In my experience, its mostly miss. I don't know why anyone would want their home listening experience to, for example, replicate the typical arena PA sound. Its usually terrible.

I believe the "target live sound" sentiment originated from audiophiles attending classical, intimate jazz ensembles and other live events from music forms that still lean into the all acoustic performances. There's some merit in that as a target, if it was the also the goal of the recording and production techniques (but that's another deep rat hole).
 

ta240

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
1,357
Likes
2,653
I agree with you that probably many who hear or mention the "target live sound" sentiment are assuming the typical concert sound.

That is unfortunate. As many in this thread point out, Live music is hit or miss at best from a pure sound perspective. In my experience, its mostly miss. I don't know why anyone would want their home listening experience to, for example, replicate the typical arena PA sound. Its usually terrible.

I believe the "target live sound" sentiment originated from audiophiles attending classical, intimate jazz ensembles and other live events from music forms that still lean into the all acoustic performances. There's some merit in that as a target, if it was the also the goal of the recording and production techniques (but that's another deep rat hole).

It is probably another one of those audio terms where a lot of people think of a lot of different meanings when they hear it. Especially depending on what type of music you prefer. Metal with a 'live sound' would be drastically different than a full orchestra classical or a small ensemble production and on and on.
For me it would mean it sounds like the source of the music is in the room with me. But, that falls into the different sound for different music thing again.

For me, all I want is the goosebumps I got when listening to a well setup system in a well treated room at a local audio shop.
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
Yes, but "audiophiles, "know", how live instruments sound!

In my experience, they are not really looking for a live sound. It's like photos. They want the one with the unnatural over-saturated colors, the greater than real contrast, etc. "I got to the orchestra every week, I know how it sounds!" .... ya, nothing like any recording you will ever have. Unless you are accustomed to listening to simple stereo microphoned, orchestra with a live audience, which I would say none of them are, then you don't have any recordings that sound like that.

It is pretty easy over time to convince yourself of a lie you tell yourself.
 

Tom Danley

Active Member
Technical Expert
Audio Company
Joined
May 6, 2021
Messages
125
Likes
580
In the 80's Intersonics made servomotor subwoofers which were used for a number of large concert tours.
At some point I got to see several of these shows.
For Michael Jackson, I sat right behind the mix engineer (I think his name was Cubby) which was about 3 or 4 feet higher than the audience so the view was outstanding.
I have to say the show was dazzling and the sound was as good as I had heard at a live show.


Another memorable show was U-2 at the world music theater outside of Chicago. The sound company was pleased with the sub-woofers and arranged to give our company a dead center sky box.
It was this show that bowled me over and changed the path of my life in a way.

Sitting dead center in front of 74 full range cabinets per side, in a building open on the sides and back I was stunned by the sound. When Bono was talking to the audience with both the band and audience quiet, one could understand about 1 out of 5 words. When the band was playing if you knew the songs, you could sing along but the bands vocals were unintelligible.

I had heard a pair of the S-4 speakers before and it sounded good and the folks running the system were the best in the biz so why did it suck so bad when you have 74 per side and why is it that generally the larger the array of speakers the worse the intelligibility is?.

It's because a single acoustic event arrives as separate events depending on the distance to each source in each frequency range. This is why the spectrum of the sound changes as a function of distance or left to right location. The greater the number of arrivals, the less the original signal is conveyed and to me this seems like a parallel to the Modulation Transfer Function that is used to describe optical resolution. If your the mix engineer, your going to adjust it to sound the best.....where you are.

The solution i pursued for the last 20 odd years is to use a horn to radiate as if there was a single driver in time and space and in the large scale, there is much less effect vs distance and sounds much more "the same" everywhere.

In the last 17 years at my current work, it has become clear that the concert style banana array loudspeakers do not work the best in doors

Interestingly, the larger and or more curved the array is, the more energy it radiates sideways and in fact they can radiate more acoustic power side ways than forward and due to the self interference principal of operation, the maximum usable throw is usually about 150 feet or less not limited by loudness but sound quality.

If the concert loudspeakers weren't enough to destroy a good recording, then you have the "capture the live source" issue.

I was at a show where Blue's Traveler was playing ( a great band) and was hanging out at the mix desk part of the time. I was struck at sound check that with every snare hit, essentially all 24 channels VU showed big inputs. So instead of one impulse like a snare live, what the mics pick up is also a train of arrivals, all separated in time and all from a different perspective AND the same for all the instruments that were amp'd..
Live sound is hard but good sound on a very large scale is possible.
Tom
 

audio2design

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 29, 2020
Messages
1,769
Likes
1,830
In the 80's Intersonics made servomotor subwoofers which were used for a number of large concert tours.
At some point I got to see several of these shows.
Sitting dead center in front of 74 full range cabinets per side, in a building open on the sides and back I was stunned by the sound. When Bono was talking to the audience with both the band and audience quiet, one could understand about 1 out of 5 words. When the band was playing if you knew the songs, you could sing along but the bands vocals were unintelligible.

That was my experience with U2 too once, though in general I found their sound poor. It sucked as I liked singing along to their songs. I was somewhat center, but quite a ways from the stage that time. Could barely make out the words. That is not the case always. Say Stevie Wonder in the same venue, roughly the same location, could hear every word clearly.
 

kipman725

Active Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
255
Likes
224
Big gigs almost always use line arrays which at best sound 'OK' due to some fundamental acoustic issues. Once you get to arena sized gigs once the produced frequency is above which the line array elements are constructively summing you are listening to the output of only one or two compression drivers at considerable distance through a narrow directivity horn. These drivers are probably getting pushed very hard with all the associated electronic limiting and non linear behavior from the driver and high SPL inside the driver and throat area of the horn. The Acoustics of these arena gigs are often very unfavorable as well with little absorption messing up the lower frequencies. It would be unreasonable to expect good sound in a typical arena gig.

Smaller events can aproach the studio sound but it requires a lot of skill on the mixing desk and also a good and well adjusted non line array sound system and acceptable room acoustic. Some smaller 'line arrays' are actualy point source vertical clusters and can sound fine. You also need to position yourself correctly. Acousticly the gig will have higher SPL than typical home listening so could sound way better.
 
Top Bottom