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"Listening to headphones over YouTube...? Hahaha!"

markanini

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#61
It sounds boomy to me, the bass is simply way too dominant just like a Fostex TR-X00 Ebony sounds way too bassheavy to my ears.
You mean the bass literally drowns the entire sound? That description sounds a little more like the MH1 to me. Or more so the Creative and Koss IEMs I've used.
 

Sean Olive

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#63

Sean Olive

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#64
With regards to those preferring a little more or less bass and treble, is that always a smooth adjustment or are there those who prefer a more irregular change? What I mean with last thing is something like a 1dB boost at 10kHz, a 3dB boost at 11kHz then 1dB at 12kHz etc. Is this the same for headphones and loudspeakers?
In our studies we observed this in two different ways: 1) giving them a bass and treble control (broadband shelving filter) and comparing their preferences among different headphones vs the Harman Target.

I think the same applies to loudspeakers.
 
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#65
Well, this thread took an unexpected twist... Something I was wondering for a while:

Welcome there, @oluvsgadgets !:cool:
hi and thanks, I wasn’t even aware about all those threads talking about me. Better not to know them all probably.

Bass droning out everything else? No I wouldn’t even listen for a second with something like that, but it’s too much. It is still at a level which is acceptable, but you know it’s too much, you then either care or not, but you know it. For me it was too much and I tried sealing it with some putty which improved it a bit, but I still preferred my MH1 also sealed as stock it was equally bassy. What I didn’t like about the MH750 was the lacking smoothness, the transition from mids to treble simply didn’t sound right to me, there was some harshness, the MH1 is way smoother and treble is better defined, I am pretty sure it’s just this emphasis around 5k which contributes to this, otherwise they probably measure pretty much the same. But sometimes 1dB bass too much can already be too much or 1dB treble too little make the whole headphone muddy. It’s not easy to find this balance,‘for me the MH750 sounded unbalanced.
 
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#66

thewas

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#67
Brent Butterworth just published an article in response to the"controversy" of recording headphones and posting them online without any controls in place.

https://soundstagesolo.com/index.php/features/277-does-it-make-sense-to-demo-audio-over-the-internet…?
A imho poor reply though to @oluvsgadgets as his main two arguments of using the Mini-DSP without EQ and the end user listening without defined reference don't hold true for him, as Oluv was always EQing/compensating the response of his recordings and giving recommendations with which headphones to best listen to his recordings, like HD600 with Sonarworks correction.
 

boselover61

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#68
A imho poor reply though to @oluvsgadgets as his main two arguments of using the Mini-DSP without EQ and the end user listening without defined reference don't hold true for him, as Oluv was always EQing/compensating the response of his recordings and giving recommendations with which headphones to best listen to his recordings, like HD600 with Sonarworks correction.
Do you think it's kinda unfair? You keep tagging back to the point that Olive made, his remark toward Oluv as a "youtube reviewer" as if that's offensive. None of that matters, when I look at these kind of back and forth I tend to ignore the name callings and look at the scientific base arguments provided. I've seen Sean's response and his statements seem fair regarding how the Harman curve works and the science behind it.

Also the K371 isn't bass heavy at all. Listen I know it's sub bass emphasized, I'm a 60 years old dude and the first response I had when I put them on, perfectly sealed and all was "is this it? it needs more bass". The only time where I've thought of the Harman curve having too much bass was when I was demoing the JBL HDI 1600m it was boomy in my room. I've never heard a Harman-tuned headphone that can be deemed bass heavy. I actually EQ it to my taste and add some mid bass boost to actually get more exciting sound out it.
 

thewas

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#69
Do you think it's kinda unfair? You keep tagging back to the point that Olive made, his remark toward Oluv as a "youtube reviewer" as if that's offensive. None of that matters, when I look at these kind of back and forth I tend to ignore the name callings and look at the scientific base arguments provided.
I criticised all 3 on this matter https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-over-youtube-hahaha.20651/page-2#post-685619 but like you say the most important are the arguments used.

I've seen Sean's response and his statements seem fair regarding how the Harman curve works and the science behind it.
No one questioned those, only the unnecessary "side kicks", even Sean himself commented later in FB:
I admit that I dismissed the method in an unprofessional way without giving adequate scientific proof, and I regret doing that.

Also the K371 isn't bass heavy at all.
I didn't write anything about the K371 here.
 

boselover61

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#70
I criticised all 3 on this matter https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-over-youtube-hahaha.20651/page-2#post-685619 but like you say the most important are the arguments used.


No one questioned those, only the unnecessary "side kicks", even Sean himself commented later in FB:
I admit that I dismissed the method in an unprofessional way without giving adequate scientific proof, and I regret doing that.


I didn't write anything about the K371 here.
When you said sidekicks you mean Brent Butterworth?
 
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#71
Also the K371 isn't bass heavy at all. Listen I know it's sub bass emphasized, I'm a 60 years old dude and the first response I had when I put them on, perfectly sealed and all was "is this it? it needs more bass".
It’s not the bass from the Harman target which I have a problem with. Bass can be a matter of taste, I also sometimes like more or less as long as it’s not boomy or is boosted below 100hz not above. But particularly the K371 has big issues in the transition from mids to treble. The whole region between 4-10khz and above sounds off and is extremely positioning dependent to get is more or less usable. It works better in the K361 which on the other hand has too much mid boost, but treble sounds more accurate on the K361 to me although also far from perfect.
 

boselover61

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#73
It’s not the bass from the Harman target which I have a problem with. Bass can be a matter of taste, I also sometimes like more or less as long as it’s not boomy or is boosted below 100hz not above. But particularly the K371 has big issues in the transition from mids to treble. The whole region between 4-10khz and above sounds off and is extremely positioning dependent to get is more or less usable. It works better in the K361 which on the other hand has too much mid boost, but treble sounds more accurate on the K361 to me although also far from perfect.
I see what you mean but can you elaborate further on what sounds off in the 4 to 10khz region? Is it a design flaw or rather it is something that you don't prefer? I thought instruments sounded perfect on them and while voices are a bit shouty it's not too bad. Is the high-freq dip troubling you and create that sense of closeness? Perhaps it's an effect of a closed-back headphone rather than what you're used to (HD600?) that's open back?
 

markanini

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#74
Brent Butterworth just published an article in response to the"controversy" of recording headphones and posting them online without any controls in place.

https://soundstagesolo.com/index.php/features/277-does-it-make-sense-to-demo-audio-over-the-internet…?
I'm frankly more bothered that you and Brent go after the smaller guy because Zeos is a youtube reviewer that has a larger subscribe count. Unlike Oluv he has not been upfront about the limitations of his setup or provided any details to help the viewer interpret the results for what they are.
 

fieldcar

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#75
It’s not the bass from the Harman target which I have a problem with. Bass can be a matter of taste, I also sometimes like more or less as long as it’s not boomy or is boosted below 100hz not above. But particularly the K371 has big issues in the transition from mids to treble. The whole region between 4-10khz and above sounds off and is extremely positioning dependent to get is more or less usable. It works better in the K361 which on the other hand has too much mid boost, but treble sounds more accurate on the K361 to me although also far from perfect.
To me, the K371 has a pretty decent tune in the mids and highs, its just that sub bass boost that gets me. Most music tracks (especially rock) are fine as they contain very little sub bass, but when you get the occasional track that does, the sub bass shelf overshadows the punch+kick and starts to sound like when you go to visit "that friend" who insists on cranking their subs much louder than the rest of their speakers. It's odd too, since my K371 sounds like how @amirm graphed it. The +10dB sub bass (20-35Hz) is lifted over mid bass to midrange. Crinacle's graph shows a much more gradual rise from the mids to sub bass. I wonder if it's unit variation. They are my best closed backs (vs 280 pros, mdrv6, aiwa arc-1, marshall major II), and I got them on sale, but I'm torn if I like them or not. I guess I just prefer my open back planar's with a near flat response way down to 20Hz.
 
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#77
Let’s be honest, reviews are mostly entertainment to Some degree, whether the format is print, online or on YT. Once the person gets past the facts: the headphone is black, the ear pads are pleather, they’re mostly plastic, etc nothing else really matters or is helpful. Whether it’s headphones or speakers or any other audio component YOU should only draw YOUR own conclusion once you’ve lived with it in your home with your equipment.

It’s a bit naive to solely base a purchase on a dealer demo, YT demo, measurements, or a magazine article when YOUR environment, experience and preferences are the final arbiter of what is good to YOU. Even the Harman gang admit their research is geared towards finding preferences. Are the 46% that didn’t prefer their target headphone code wrong? Absolutely not.
 
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#78
nobody seems to have picked up on oluvs defence of his methods by proposing self referencing as a valid form of validation. From my own perspective this seems flawed on two major accounts. First it still relies on his own hearing for everything to sound the same. of course the worse your hearing the more alike everything will sound so thats problem number one for this method of validation. problem number two is self referencing by definition cannot be a self validation. An established independent method of measurement/referencing must be used. I am not knocking Oluv and his great channel but he does not take criticism well. He also states he does not like the harman curve and prefers the sonarworks flat eq. He seems unaware that what sonarworks calls flat is based on the harman curved with their own slant on the best final curve. It is not a flat eq, simply their baseline that they call flat.
 

JohnYang1997

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#79
nobody seems to have picked up on oluvs defence of his methods by proposing self referencing as a valid form of validation. From my own perspective this seems flawed on two major accounts. First it still relies on his own hearing for everything to sound the same. of course the worse your hearing the more alike everything will sound so thats problem number one for this method of validation. problem number two is self referencing by definition cannot be a self validation. An established independent method of measurement/referencing must be used. I am not knocking Oluv and his great channel but he does not take criticism well. He also states he does not like the harman curve and prefers the sonarworks flat eq. He seems unaware that what sonarworks calls flat is based on the harman curved with their own slant on the best final curve. It is not a flat eq, simply their baseline that they call flat.
Sonarworks has zero to do with Harman target. Not saying that it makes it better or worse. Just to point out. And the main issue is again is perspective what do you call similar to Harman Target? 1dB in any frequency between 100hz and 10khz is big among targets. Each Harman target is also very different.
No one has done better than Oluv in presenting a sound of a pair of headphones. Measurements are good but limitations are larger than his recordings (in the ear mic ones).
 
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#80
Sonarworks has zero to do with Harman target. Not saying that it makes it better or worse. Just to point out. And the main issue is again is perspective what do you call similar to Harman Target? 1dB in any frequency between 100hz and 10khz is big among targets. Each Harman target is also very different.
No one has done better than Oluv in presenting a sound of a pair of headphones. Measurements are good but limitations are larger than his recordings (in the ear mic ones).
you say sonarworks has zero to do with harman. you totally ignored what i actually said. The connection is:
1: sonarworks have said their eq is based on the harman curve but they have skewed it towards the original basis of a flat speaker in a well treated room rather than the layered on user preferences.
2: oluv states the sonarworks eq is a flat eq. he seems to think they are not using an underlying curve which is their target "flat". He simply states sonarworks is flat eq which he prefers to the harman curve seemingly not knowing the sonarworks eq is a curve and not flat and based on the harman curve.
you ignored my actual opening question of self referencing as his stated means of validation.
you have tried to make my post about the rights and wrongs of the harman curve which is clearly not what my post was about,.
 
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