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linkwitz lxmini

changster

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Erin's impressions are pretty much the same as mine. I have the LXSirius+2 in a small bedroom while a 521.4 in the living room. The presentation is the best part about the speaker, with good imaging as well.

However, the Sirius (Mini) even in a small room really needed the +2 subs. Also, like my experience with other wideband speakers, there's just something about tweeters that give it the extra sparkle and realism. Without tweeters, the sound is warm-ish and nice but for me it's not as accurate. The Sirius+2 for me is something to listen to while laying down and chillin in the bedroom without being overly critical. The big soundstage for such small speakers is very enjoyable.

The 521.4 makes up for a lot of the deficiencies, although in my relatively large room where the 521.4's are placed I still feel like it needs more midbass and sub bass. I feel that way about almost all home HiFi speakers I've listened to though. I only get PUMPED from car audio.
 

dtaylo1066

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I have heard the LX Mini on several occasions, as presented by SL himself at RMAF over various years of the show. He used Emotiva amps, a Bel Canto CD as transport, and MiniDSP for x-over and EQ. I thought the sound was full and wonderful -- a total thumbs up. I found nothing lacking in the speaker and have contemplated building a pair ever since.
 

changster

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I have heard the LX Mini on several occasions, as presented by SL himself at RMAF over various years of the show. He used Emotiva amps, a Bel Canto CD as transport, and MiniDSP for x-over and EQ. I thought the sound was full and wonderful -- a total thumbs up. I found nothing lacking in the speaker and have contemplated building a pair ever since.

You listened without the subs and found nothing lacking? Really?
 

Gatordaddy

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Why did you think it was a good idea to send him the unofficial crossover?
why couldn't Amir implement both? It's just changing the DSP setup. Also, if the original implementation only was reviewed, the LX Mini community would cry that "it's a shame the speaker isn't being reviewed in its optimized configuration". IMO it's great that after several years of klippel use one of the most iconic DIY speakers is getting the ASR treatment. The sample donor @suttondesign should be thanked, and if members want Amir to test more configurations than what was shipped, they should direct that pressure towards the CFO. Remember who is out of pocket here.
 

Rednaxela

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why couldn't Amir implement both? It's just changing the DSP setup.
Plus doing another measurement run right? How many ASR speaker reviews do you know with more than one Klippel run? I can think of only one (Neumann KH 80 DSP), but also another review (Vandersteen VLR) where a second run was requested but Amir objected heavily on the grounds of high opportunity costs.

All in all I think it's fair to assume up front there will be one shot. Happy to be informed otherwise of course.

Also, if the original implementation only was reviewed, the LX Mini community would cry that "it's a shame the speaker isn't being reviewed in its optimized configuration".
Genuine question. What about this particular optimized configuration makes it more valid than any other DIY-er's alternative take? Was SL involved in its development? Did he approve it? (In my view this was also the question behind the question you quoted.)

IMO it's great that after several years of klippel use one of the most iconic DIY speakers is getting the ASR treatment. The sample donor @suttondesign should be thanked, and if members want Amir to test more configurations than what was shipped, they should direct that pressure towards the CFO. Remember who is out of pocket here.
Well I don't think people necessarily want more configurations tested. Just the most meaningful one. Which, in 2022, may actually be the one that was shipped. So why not just discuss this here instead of calling people ungrateful and barking up the wrong tree?







Edit: fixed second quote.
 
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Pablo27

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Ill be honest I'm a little disappointed by the findings and hoped / wanted more. I must consider that I may have snake oiled myself (for the last time). I have the PASS ASP for these although from what I can gather that doesn't necessarily make a huge difference.

There are tracks where the mini definitely pulls additional details from the music, especially things like reverb and creates an atmosphere in the room so to speak.

I wonder why so many people rave about these when also comparing them to high end speakers like the dutch etc..
 

Juhazi

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"We" must remember that LX521.4 is the best speaker SL designed. He must have known the limitations of LXmini well, but I have always been suspicious of the marketing phrases he turned up using about it. And now LXSirius gets even more oil...

I have never heard either, but I'm familiar with dipole sound, and I believe that even LXmini does work well in normal rooms and gives more natural presentation than small boxed speakers, also it's bass is better.
 
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Colonel7

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First I should say I own these and am biased :). As you mention I think they sound quite different from normal box speakers and although they are not the greatest value proposition I enjoy them very much.

I agree that the results seem very much in line with published data. I thought @ctrl's analysis here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...z-the-answer-for-home-audio.19774/post-890661 was very good and clearly shows the smooth but narrowing directivity (not sure how you get anything else when using a 4" FR), dipole behavior from 1-5K and discusses the FU10RB distortion issues at 1.5 kHz.

I agree that the cardoid aspects as well as the claim to tonal similarity to the LX521.4 always seemed a bit snake oily. It certainly would be interesting to try a slightly larger top tube in order to seal the full range, re-EQ and see how much that brief dipole behavior actually contributes to the sound.

Michael
To me the measurements were better than I expected and the additional EQing potential due to nice directivity makes it attractive for a build at some point. It's quite a nice out of the box design. Glad Erin measured it because his process and longer duration for listening and setup according to design intentions better matches non-traditional designs. Amir listens to a speaker and moves on quickly due to his queue.
 

mdsimon2

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To me the measurements were better than I expected and the additional EQing potential due to nice directivity makes it attractive for a build at some point. It's quite a nice out of the box design. Glad Erin measured it because his process and longer duration for listening and setup according to design intentions better matches non-traditional designs. Amir listens to a speaker and moves on quickly due to his queue.

Good points all around. It is especially cool that the directivity was achieved with such an unconventional design and backyard measurements (and of course years of experience).

For all the marketing speak one thing they do very well in practice is disappear. I think part of it is because they look so unconventional but people will be watching a movie and will ask if the sound is coming from the TV because of the strong center image and lack of localization from the speakers.

Another thing that I really like about the speaker is that it is very to integrate with subs as it sealed and even before the Klippel measurements the low end response was well characterized by Linkwitz and others.

Michael
 
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ctrl

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So, now we have the first complete measurements of the LXmini and the results are very interesting - to keep the post from becoming page long, just a few notes....

In two posts (see here and here) I tried to analyze the LXmini a bit based on S. Linkwitz (SL) original measurements. Some things are confirmed by Erin's measurements, others differ strongly.


Comparison on-axis measurement SL and Erin's Klippel
Both measurements use the center of the 4'' full-range driver as the measurement axis. The measurement of SL was probably made at 1m distance, the Klippel measurement calculated at 2m distance. Because of the small distances of the drivers, the different measuring distances has nearly no influence on the shape of the on-axis FR.
Therefore, the differences in frequency response are astonishing:
1659517163300.png
I don't know if SL made any drastic changes after his published measurements, but the 3dB differences in the 1.8-4kHz range are dramatic sound-wise.
If a PEQ is set in the MiniDSP in the range around 10-16kHz, it should be checked - it seems that the break-up frequency of the driver is not hit cleanly.

The Youtube comments on Erin's video say that some find the speaker harsh in certain frequency ranges.
This could have something to do with the somewhat too present 2-5kHz range that Erin's on-axis measurements show - in SL's measurements, this range was lowered 3dB.
This is reflected in the performance of the ER, SP and PIR.

PIR:
1659520317899.png


"The response in the vertical plane should be similar, because of closeness of the acoustically small sources"
This quote from SL with regard to the LXmini is true on the whole, but rather not in detail.
Horizontally and vertically, you can observe a kind of dipolar radiation behavior ("hypercardioid") in the range of 1-8kHz. However, the vertical radiation has additional side lobes (see pink ellipses). Mainly due to the upward radiating driver. The hypercardioid radiation and the side lobes could be the explanation for the huge sound stage that many hear.
1659531267898.png
This also results in a lot of sound energy being emitted in the vertical range 30-60° (see purple ellipse) - which can be easily seen in the unusual slope of the "ceiling bounce" in the early reflections diagram.
1659531913546.png
The result is a significant increase in the sound power output in the range 400-1000Hz - can be seen in the above PIR graph. Whether this has an effect on the sound is difficult to say (speculation based on the measurements: possibly the LS could sometimes sound a little tinny, nasal or not).
The "problem" of the increased sound power output only becomes really visible when the vertical measurements are included and can easily be overlooked if only the horizontal FR are considered.

It is not surprising that such an LS does not tolerate high SPL levels (sealed speaker and 4'' mid-high) and is confirmed by high multi-tone distortion - but high SPL is not the goal of the LS.
 

abdo123

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If a PEQ is set in the MiniDSP in the range around 10-16kHz, it should be checked - it seems that the break-up frequency of the driver is not hit cleanly.
there are several High Q PEQ filters for the Fullrange driver in the 10KHz to 20KHz region. I might digitize the response and play around with them for a while. I'm sorry but i don't think I can share them since it's copyrighted information.
 

mdsimon2

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If a PEQ is set in the MiniDSP in the range around 10-16kHz, it should be checked - it seems that the break-up frequency of the driver is not hit cleanly.

First, thank you for the comments, very insightful!

There is a high Q cut followed by a high Q boost in that range which many builders have either reduced or omitted as they couldn't find a reason to use them in their own measurements. Some have speculated that they were added by SL for additional "zing" and were more of a psychoacoustic addition rather than a necessary correction.

SL does post the LXmini EQ in a publicly accessible portion of his website -> https://www.linkwitzlab.com/The_Magic/The_Magic.htm so I don't feel too bad about posting the image below.

LXmini-eq-s.jpg


Michael
 

ctrl

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There is a high Q cut followed by a high Q boost in that range which many builders have either reduced or omitted as they couldn't find a reason to use them in their own measurements.
Thanks for pointing that out, that might explain the deep dip around 13kHz in Erin's on-axis measurement compared to SL original measurement.
It is probably not possible for the manufacturer to produce the break-up behavior of the driver always constant.

Therefore, as you say, it makes sense to measure the LS individually and adjust the PEQ accordingly or to leave this out completely.
 

somebodyelse

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There is a high Q cut followed by a high Q boost in that range which many builders have either reduced or omitted as they couldn't find a reason to use them in their own measurements. Some have speculated that they were added by SL for additional "zing" and were more of a psychoacoustic addition rather than a necessary correction.
The Pass analog crossover also skips those high Q bits. The document includes subsequent measurements where SL found this actually resulted in a flatter high frequency response than the DSP, and some speculation about why.
 

Gatordaddy

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Well I don't think people necessarily want more configurations tested. Just the most meaningful one. Which, in 2022, may actually be the one that was shipped. So why not just discuss this here instead of calling people ungrateful and barking up the wrong tree?

Look I get that it's not my job to tone police the forum. But the owner sent a LX Mini sample in to be tested. I'm just pointing out that directing any complaints about the testing configuration to anyone besides the person running the Klippel is barking up the wrong tree.
 

Rick Sykora

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Check LXmini off the list I guess. Does not quite live up to my expectations, but did not see if EAC tested both speakers to see if they matched. Could be a build issue…

Of the speakers in my original poll, the only one left that I might build is the Heissmann DXT-mon. I have most of the parts except for crossover design. Was hoping they might ship one to Amir, but did not happen. :(
 

More Dynamics Please

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Could it be that the general concept of the unique LXmini configuration is valid and that different drivers and crossover optimized by Klippel measurement could result in measurably and audibly improved performance?
 

abdo123

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Okay so 'fixing' this speaker is fairly simple, first i took off all the EQ Linkwitz applies from 10KHz and up.

1659549717816.png


I applied a low shelf filter of 500Hz of 1.5 dB and a high shelf filter of 10KHz of 4dB.

1659549816076.png


I fixed Erin's version of breakout by applying a PK PEQ of 14141 of 7 dB of 10 Q (This will likely vary from unit to unit) and got this spinorama, it's a very decent improvement and perhaps as far as i would be willing to go If i want to keep Linkwitz's original overall tuning.

1659549903693.png
 
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Gatordaddy

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Okay so 'fixing' this speaker is fairly simple, first i took off all the EQ Linkwitz applies above 10KHz.

View attachment 222151

I applied a low shelf filter of 500Hz of 1.5 dB and a high shelf filter of 10KHz of 4dB.

View attachment 222152

I fixed Erin's version of breakout by applying a PK PEQ of 14141 of 7 dB of 10 Q (This will likely vary from unit to unit) and got this spinorama, it's a very decent improvement and perhaps as far as i would be willing to go If i want to keep Linkwitz's original overall tuning.

View attachment 222153
That’s a pretty dang good spin for such a novel speaker
 
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