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Linkwitz LX521.4 - new build and impressions

Joel Foust

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What are your current high efficiency speakers?
Troels Gravesen’s “The Loudspeaker” TL-1. It’s not like huge horn or single driver kind of high efficiency but with a Hypex amp on the woofer it gets plenty loud on the top half with just a handful of watts. I go back and forth between a 300b amp (TU-8600R) and a Pass designed Aleph-j typically. I do have some much more powerful AB and class D amps that will drive it to ear bleeding levels too. I can now say I have a handle on what class A brings to the table but the feeling that I’m in an intimate jazz club or sitting in a live orchestra just isn’t there like it is with LX521’s…

The rest of the system was and ADI-2 DAC with a Nutube B1 buffer when using the Aleph-J or AB amps. I’ve swapped the ADI-2 with the Zapco HDSP without much regret as my plans are to rebuild LX521 and also try to redesign the upper baffle with lower distortion drivers to compare against LX521. I know it sounds audacious but I’ve been designing my own speakers with great success for a long time and have spent years understanding open baffle loudspeaker design. Its going to be hard to improve upon but I think with improved driver technology and enough effort there is an opportunity to make something better. I’ve always used the Linkwitz open baffles as a reference and will continue to do so again:)
 

Joel Foust

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I’m one of the misfortunate few who move houses every few years (6 moves in 10 years).

I have had monopoles and dipoles and big and small speakers (7L to 100L+ litres).

The upside is that I can tell you that rooms make ALL the difference.

Anyone working in live sound will also tell you that: It’s nice to get a speaker that has flattish frequency response, but EQ is a definite necessity.m

Any speaker designer also knows this- after they’ve completed their tour de force; they hold their breath when it’s exhibited for the first time in a new and unknown environment.

Build listen enjoy adjust.
So I totally agree that EQ is necessary. Until I purchased my first RME ADI-2 I felt like any component offering EQ degraded sound quality and imaging. The ADI-2 changed that view and have been using its EQ ever sense, even on the LX521’s depending on type of music. Not a plug yet as its pretty new to me but Zapco is a car audio company that has a 8 analog in + Optical + SPDIF in with 16 analog outputs. The outputs use AKM4458, AKM4490 or ESS9038 Pro depending on your selection. I'd love to see test results on this as it seems like the best thing I can find for a fully active system (wish it were balanced though...). I went AKM 4490 and so far love the sound but haven't tried it with anything open baffle yet.... LX521’s definitely need to be out in the room and the room must extend beyond the listening position to get the full effect. I feel like if you can meet those criteria then dipoles are less sensitive to what is on the floors, walls and furniture than a typical box speaker.
 
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Madjalapeno

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I think what I like most is they are non-fatiguing. I can listen for hours, at a good volume without my ears feeling tired at the end of it. They also work well for home theater. You might not get the gut punch of a sealed sub, but you certainly get the rumble.

I don't think I have the positioning right yet though, as the LXMini's are still my favorite.
 

jeffbook

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So I totally agree that EQ is necessary. Until I purchased my first RME ADI-2 I felt like any component offering EQ degraded sound quality and imaging. The ADI-2 changed that view and have been using its EQ ever sense, even on the LX521’s depending on type of music. Not a plug yet as its pretty new to me but Zapco is a car audio company that has a 8 analog in + Optical + SPDIF in with 16 analog outputs. The outputs use AKM4458, AKM4490 or ESS9038 Pro depending on your selection. I'd love to see test results on this as it seems like the best thing I can find for a fully active system (wish it were balanced though...). I went AKM 4490 and so far love the sound but haven't tried it with anything open baffle yet.... LX521’s definitely need to be out in the room and the room must extend beyond the listening position to get the full effect. I feel like if you can meet those criteria then dipoles are less sensitive to what is on the floors, walls and furniture than a typical box speaker.
Doers the Zapco unit do crossovers as well as EQ? How it is programmed?
 

tktran303

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So I totally agree that EQ is necessary. Until I purchased my first RME ADI-2 I felt like any component offering EQ degraded sound quality and imaging. The ADI-2 changed that view and have been using its EQ ever sense, even on the LX521’s depending on type of music. Not a plug yet as its pretty new to me but Zapco is a car audio company that has a 8 analog in + Optical + SPDIF in with 16 analog outputs. The outputs use AKM4458, AKM4490 or ESS9038 Pro depending on your selection. I'd love to see test results on this as it seems like the best thing I can find for a fully active system (wish it were balanced though...). I went AKM 4490 and so far love the sound but haven't tried it with anything open baffle yet.... LX521’s definitely need to be out in the room and the room must extend beyond the listening position to get the full effect. I feel like if you can meet those criteria then dipoles are less sensitive to what is on the floors, walls and furniture than a typical box speaker.

Hi Joel,

I think it’s a trade off. The reduced side wall reflections but increased front wall reflections definitely give a different presentation.

Even over 2 metre from the front wall; my musician friends feels it sounds different. I can’t recall exactly what they said, but to me has a softer focus, pleasant special characteristics. What’s really curious is that when I’m in another room it sounds more life-like than box speakers.

But box speakers (yes, I have them as well, not a 18” woofer like the Loudspeaker I; but dual active 12” woofers and 95dB/2.83V 6.5” pure midrange) the focus is tighter.

The Sealed woofers go down to 44 Hz (F3) , the in room response is lower of course but anechoic it can output 32Hz @110dB@1m without EQ with just 400W(4ohm)

(I don’t aim for 20 or 16Hz) and it already reminds me of the body shaking bass punch of superclubs’ sound-system of pre-Covid.

Is it less or more real?

It’s hard to say but with simple acoustical music like strings and piano and guitar the dipole is better. For hard rock and metal and synth; I think it’s the box.

My subjective opinions; but I’ve had too many speakers and too many residences, so count that as anecdotal evidence from piano playing music loving audio tragic.

Oh and we have pianos and guitars and drums in the household too…
 
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Joel Foust

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Doers the Zapco unit do crossovers as well as EQ? How it is programmed?
So I’ve only had it about a week so no expert in it yet. It is very car oriented but yes it has crossover capability with selectable filter type and slopes. It has 30 bands of PEQ per channel except last few channels have less, phase adjustment and some sort of dynamic EQ to compensate for car manufacturers built in compression. It is a little odd in a home audiophile setting but so far I find it pretty versatile. Only complaint is I don’t see shelf filters yet. It does some other interesting things for car audio that may be fun to play with at home like assigning a percentage of a given input to any output and adjust delay; this is used to create surround effects in cars. I could see it being very versatile for an Atmos setup etc. If you get seriously interested the software is free to download and you can setup an entire profile before ever having the DSP (this is what I did..). In about 20 minutes I had the Troel’s speakers +/- 1db from 30Hz-10kHz. So far I’m pretty impressed and will get good use out of it prototyping speakers and enjoying it in my main rig.
 

changster

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So I’ve only had it about a week so no expert in it yet. It is very car oriented but yes it has crossover capability with selectable filter type and slopes. It has 30 bands of PEQ per channel except last few channels have less, phase adjustment and some sort of dynamic EQ to compensate for car manufacturers built in compression. It is a little odd in a home audiophile setting but so far I find it pretty versatile. Only complaint is I don’t see shelf filters yet. It does some other interesting things for car audio that may be fun to play with at home like assigning a percentage of a given input to any output and adjust delay; this is used to create surround effects in cars. I could see it being very versatile for an Atmos setup etc. If you get seriously interested the software is free to download and you can setup an entire profile before ever having the DSP (this is what I did..). In about 20 minutes I had the Troel’s speakers +/- 1db from 30Hz-10kHz. So far I’m pretty impressed and will get good use out of it prototyping speakers and enjoying it in my main rig.

Hi Joel, any updates?

I run the HDSP-V in my car with its ESS DACs. It's a fantastic piece of equipment. I'm curious how you've implemented in the home.
 

jumper981

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Hi to all guys!
Unfortunately I’ve searched in every forum for checking some frequency responses of the LX521.4 but can’t find anything expect a DSP corrected frequency response.
Could someone point me where I could find some simple and not corrected measurements of this speaker set?

Was considering for a flat studio application.
 

Joel Foust

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Hi to all guys!
Unfortunately I’ve searched in every forum for checking some frequency responses of the LX521.4 but can’t find anything expect a DSP corrected frequency response.
Could someone point me where I could find some simple and not corrected measurements of this speaker set?

Was considering for a flat studio application.
Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree with Linkwitz's assertion that these are good monitors. I'd say they are great as another monitoring source, especially when evaluating soundstage... The DSP or ASP is the crossover so you will always have this in place. I've NEVER seen anechoic or quasi anechoic measurements of the LX521s. I've added my in-room measurements using RMI Babyface Pro and Earthworks M30 going through ASP.4. The large suck-out and variability in low frequencies is likely room. These measurements are from a few years ago so would be pressed to tell you measurement conditions but did have the mic/interface noted in the measurement file...

Do NOT take this measurement as a reflection of how LX521s sound because they sound really, really good. Really the best speaker I've ever heard. However, being a FOH engineer and dabbling in mixing in a DAW I'd not use LX521s as a baseline as you want something thats more like what every one else listens to as a reference and their polar response is very unique:).
 

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jumper981

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Many thanks @Joel Foust for your quick answer.
Yes I know about the ASP, I was saying DSP like Sonarworks and those types of correction, I used the wrong terminology, excuse me.
Really, your answer is super informative.
I was actually searching something like super flat mains (like the KH420) as I have also other types of references (KRK and a Adam S2V), so that seems an actually super good speaker, and also a good frequency response (yeah probably the low spectrum is about the room).
Hope there will be some quasi or completely anechoic spectrum references.
Also, if I may ask, what you mean by polar response?
Are they “omnidirectional” and you mean to actually have a more focused imaging?

Many thanks in advance.
 

jeffbook

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As Joel mentioned in post #132, line level EQ and crossovers either through a DSP unit or a the LX521 custom ASP are mandatory with the LX521. If you want to see the individual driver response measurements made without EQ and crossovers, they can be found at linkwitzlab.com They are in a paper Linkwitz presented at the REPRODUCED SOUND 2015 Conference of the Institute of Acoustics in the United Kingdom in 2015. This paper is found in the "Resources" section of his website under the subtitle "Publications". I attempted to post a pdf of this paper, but the file size is too large. It can be downloaded at the Linkwitz site.

Besides the individual driver response graphs, the paper outlines the design philosophy for both the LX521 and the LXmini as well as a lengthy discussion of room interaction with these two designs. It should be read by anyone who wonders why these speakers look like they do.

Based on the room requirements in terms of size and listening position necessary for optimum use of the LX521, the LX521 might not be the best selection between it and the LXmini for use a a monitor due to the minimum speaker distance to listener and room volume required for the LX521 to perform as Siegfried designed it. In that case the LXmini has similar imaging and sound characteristics and can be positioned much closer to the listener and would fulfill the role of a monitor speaker, especially if used in either the LXmini+2 or the LXstudio versions that include dipole subwoofers for extended bass response.

However, if you want to hear how a mixed and mastered recording will sound in a typical home listening environment that doesn't have extra acoustical treatments, either the LX521 or an LXmini with a dipole bass section is, in my opinion, about as good as you can get.
 

jumper981

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As Joel mentioned in post #132, line level EQ and crossovers either through a DSP unit or a the LX521 custom ASP are mandatory with the LX521. If you want to see the individual driver response measurements made without EQ and crossovers, they can be found at linkwitzlab.com They are in a paper Linkwitz presented at the REPRODUCED SOUND 2015 Conference of the Institute of Acoustics in the United Kingdom in 2015. This paper is found in the "Resources" section of his website under the subtitle "Publications". I attempted to post a pdf of this paper, but the file size is too large. It can be downloaded at the Linkwitz site.

Besides the individual driver response graphs, the paper outlines the design philosophy for both the LX521 and the LXmini as well as a lengthy discussion of room interaction with these two designs. It should be read by anyone who wonders why these speakers look like they do.

Based on the room requirements in terms of size and listening position necessary for optimum use of the LX521, the LX521 might not be the best selection between it and the LXmini for use a a monitor due to the minimum speaker distance to listener and room volume required for the LX521 to perform as Siegfried designed it. In that case the LXmini has similar imaging and sound characteristics and can be positioned much closer to the listener and would fulfill the role of a monitor speaker, especially if used in either the LXmini+2 or the LXstudio versions that include dipole subwoofers for extended bass response.

However, if you want to hear how a mixed and mastered recording will sound in a typical home listening environment that doesn't have extra acoustical treatments, either the LX521 or an LXmini with a dipole bass section is, in my opinion, about as good as you can get.
Many thanks @jeffbook
Yes I was actually using wrong terminology for describing SonarWorks type corrections, and not the active crossover, excuse me.
I actually really like the concept behind those speakers, that are like “DIY” and a really good development behind them.
Yes I checked also the LXmini (the studio version actually) and I’m also considering those as my room is too near the minimum 64/65 mm3 requirement (and have also some irregular shapes and distances between walls)

Many thanks in advance!
 

Joel Foust

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Many thanks @Joel Foust for your quick answer.
Yes I know about the ASP, I was saying DSP like Sonarworks and those types of correction, I used the wrong terminology, excuse me.
Really, your answer is super informative.
I was actually searching something like super flat mains (like the KH420) as I have also other types of references (KRK and a Adam S2V), so that seems an actually super good speaker, and also a good frequency response (yeah probably the low spectrum is about the room).
Hope there will be some quasi or completely anechoic spectrum references.
Also, if I may ask, what you mean by polar response?
Are they “omnidirectional” and you mean to actually have a more focused imaging?

Many thanks in advance.
I'll take a stab at answering your question regarding polar response summarizing what I *remember* Linkwitz stating.... So a speaker radiates into 3 dimensional space. Typically when you look at studio monitor response or speaker response in general you see the on axis response which is not enough to understand how a speaker will sound in a room that will reflect. A typical box speaker will radiate like a sphere at low frequencies and radiate in a somewhat narrow pattern at super high frequencies. This causes the in-room reflections to not have the same spectral balance as the on-axis radiation. The LX521s are designed around a theory that reflections that closely match the spectral balance of the on-axis radiation will allow listeners to ignore the room (per psychoacoustics, if they are not early reflections). So LX521's have a very good figure of 8 radiation pattern in the horizontal domain. This gets a little sciencey but in my opinion the theory is proven by the LX521s. Their ability to image both deep and wide are unparalleled in my personal limited experience...
 

617

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I'll take a stab at answering your question regarding polar response summarizing what I *remember* Linkwitz stating.... So a speaker radiates into 3 dimensional space. Typically when you look at studio monitor response or speaker response in general you see the on axis response which is not enough to understand how a speaker will sound in a room that will reflect. A typical box speaker will radiate like a sphere at low frequencies and radiate in a somewhat narrow pattern at super high frequencies. This causes the in-room reflections to not have the same spectral balance as the on-axis radiation. The LX521s are designed around a theory that reflections that closely match the spectral balance of the on-axis radiation will allow listeners to ignore the room (per psychoacoustics, if they are not early reflections). So LX521's have a very good figure of 8 radiation pattern in the horizontal domain. This gets a little sciencey but in my opinion the theory is proven by the LX521s. Their ability to image both deep and wide are unparalleled in my personal limited experience...

The lx 521 doesn't do anything that different from other well designed speakers. Like all good speakers, as you go up in frequency, the radiation of the speaker changes gradually and smoothly. It uses a big woofer array, a smaller midrange, an even smaller mid and then a tweeter, similar to the revel salon speakers. Despite odd appearance, it's basically a very traditional 4 way hifi speaker.

What is distinct is the wide dispersion. Dipoles put a ton of energy around the room, which would normally lead to an unfocused sound, but they have a trick up their sleeve. Due to the front and rear radiation being out of phase, there is no sound radiated to the sides. This restricts dispersion, and if your side walls are the nearest reflective source, will make the speaker sound like it's in a bigger room compared to other speakers.

Using dipoles for recording is not unusual, I've seen pictures of quad 63s being used for classical music, and the lx521 can be understood as being part of that lineage, except with a far more controlled and refined radiation pattern. Panel speakers are a bad idea for a lot of reasons, and the lx521 gives you all the benefit with little of the cost.

The lx521 is an important speaker. We have excellent performing monopole speakers, horn speakers and even a new batch of cardioids. The lx521 is the only full range dipole with a really smooth DI that I am aware of. You get all the cool effects of panel speakers but with smoother everything and probably a lot more power in a reasonable size.

We've learned a lot about what matters in loudspeaker design, and I think it is reasonable to say that wide VS narrow dispersion is a matter of preference, even if narrow dispersing speakers provide greater intelligibility, wide speakers sound better with a lot of music. The lx521 is the widest dispersing speaker which is also totally performant that I'm aware of.

I will probably make a pair some day, and if I had 3 pairs of speakers it would be one of them.
 

Joel Foust

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The lx 521 doesn't do anything that different from other well designed speakers. Like all good speakers, as you go up in frequency, the radiation of the speaker changes gradually and smoothly. It uses a big woofer array, a smaller midrange, an even smaller mid and then a tweeter, similar to the revel salon speakers. Despite odd appearance, it's basically a very traditional 4 way hifi speaker.

What is distinct is the wide dispersion. Dipoles put a ton of energy around the room, which would normally lead to an unfocused sound, but they have a trick up their sleeve. Due to the front and rear radiation being out of phase, there is no sound radiated to the sides. This restricts dispersion, and if your side walls are the nearest reflective source, will make the speaker sound like it's in a bigger room compared to other speakers.

Using dipoles for recording is not unusual, I've seen pictures of quad 63s being used for classical music, and the lx521 can be understood as being part of that lineage, except with a far more controlled and refined radiation pattern. Panel speakers are a bad idea for a lot of reasons, and the lx521 gives you all the benefit with little of the cost.

The lx521 is an important speaker. We have excellent performing monopole speakers, horn speakers and even a new batch of cardioids. The lx521 is the only full range dipole with a really smooth DI that I am aware of. You get all the cool effects of panel speakers but with smoother everything and probably a lot more power in a reasonable size.

We've learned a lot about what matters in loudspeaker design, and I think it is reasonable to say that wide VS narrow dispersion is a matter of preference, even if narrow dispersing speakers provide greater intelligibility, wide speakers sound better with a lot of music. The lx521 is the widest dispersing speaker which is also totally performant that I'm aware of.

I will probably make a pair some day, and if I had 3 pairs of speakers it would be one of them.
The rear radiation of the LX521's (or any full dipole speaker) causes cancellations at the side and rear radiation of all frequencies. When the wavelength the driver is transmitting doesn't go beyond the baffle things get a little funny but that's part of the why LX521 has that funky shaped baffle. YES, I agree that the forward radiation does narrow as you get in higher frequencies but overall the radiation pattern from 30Hz to 10kHz is very consistent and looks very different if you consider the full 360 degree horizontal radiation pattern... What happens behind the speaker severely impacts user's perception. That's not to say other types of speaker can't sound good; especially in well treated rooms...

I sold mine some time ago but plan to go back to this design because I haven't been happy since I sold them:) There is a VAST difference between dipoles and monopole speakers in the way they interact with the room and sound in general...
 

jumper981

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The lx 521 doesn't do anything that different from other well designed speakers. Like all good speakers, as you go up in frequency, the radiation of the speaker changes gradually and smoothly. It uses a big woofer array, a smaller midrange, an even smaller mid and then a tweeter, similar to the revel salon speakers. Despite odd appearance, it's basically a very traditional 4 way hifi speaker.

What is distinct is the wide dispersion. Dipoles put a ton of energy around the room, which would normally lead to an unfocused sound, but they have a trick up their sleeve. Due to the front and rear radiation being out of phase, there is no sound radiated to the sides. This restricts dispersion, and if your side walls are the nearest reflective source, will make the speaker sound like it's in a bigger room compared to other speakers.

Using dipoles for recording is not unusual, I've seen pictures of quad 63s being used for classical music, and the lx521 can be understood as being part of that lineage, except with a far more controlled and refined radiation pattern. Panel speakers are a bad idea for a lot of reasons, and the lx521 gives you all the benefit with little of the cost.

The lx521 is an important speaker. We have excellent performing monopole speakers, horn speakers and even a new batch of cardioids. The lx521 is the only full range dipole with a really smooth DI that I am aware of. You get all the cool effects of panel speakers but with smoother everything and probably a lot more power in a reasonable size.

We've learned a lot about what matters in loudspeaker design, and I think it is reasonable to say that wide VS narrow dispersion is a matter of preference, even if narrow dispersing speakers provide greater intelligibility, wide speakers sound better with a lot of music. The lx521 is the widest dispersing speaker which is also totally performant that I'm aware of.

I will probably make a pair some day, and if I had 3 pairs of speakers it would be one of them.

Many thanks @617 basing on your experience would the LX521.4 be suitable for critical listening? Are they likely linear on the response?
Is the room an important variable for those speakers?
Would they fit for a nearfield application (likely 1/1.5 meter listening point)?

Many thanks in advance!
 

AudioJester

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Hmmm... I'm not sure I agree with Linkwitz's assertion that these are good monitors. I'd say they are great as another monitoring source, especially when evaluating soundstage... The DSP or ASP is the crossover so you will always have this in place. I've NEVER seen anechoic or quasi anechoic measurements of the LX521s. I've added my in-room measurements using RMI Babyface Pro and Earthworks M30 going through ASP.4. The large suck-out and variability in low frequencies is likely room. These measurements are from a few years ago so would be pressed to tell you measurement conditions but did have the mic/interface noted in the measurement file...

Do NOT take this measurement as a reflection of how LX521s sound because they sound really, really good. Really the best speaker I've ever heard. However, being a FOH engineer and dabbling in mixing in a DAW I'd not use LX521s as a baseline as you want something thats more like what every one else listens to as a reference and their polar response is very unique:).

You know, every single measurement of the Lx521 i have seen (including my own) has this suckout issue between 100-300Hz. I have a theory that it maybe due to reflections/cancellations from the lower midrange driver and the bridge itself. Or perhaps that 8 inch driver just cant produce enough output down that low.
With DSP its easy to correct - move the crossover point from 110Hz to 250Hz between bass and midrange drivers. Filling in the hole made a huge difference for me.
 

changster

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Slightly off topic but I have the Linkwitz 521.4 along with the turnkey Linkwitz amplifiers, and the one thing I wish for in the turnkey amps is that they didn't have the turnkey ASP. It locks in the crossover settings. I would much rather get my own DSP and control every single channel / tune it myself. I suspect most home audiophiles probably wouldn't want to implement the tune and crossover themselves though. Only people who have gone through tuning a fully active car audio system would do it I think.

My last speakers were Rockport Aquila's with the ex-flagship Gryphon preamp and monoblock amps. I much prefer the current Linkwitz, fyi. Not only is it way cheaper, but I prefer the massive stage and awesome imaging of these dipoles. Hypex Ncore (and now Purifi etc) are game changers as well, where you can now run 8-10 channels fully active with awesome class D amps that don't take up your entire living room and only have 2 channels.

Having said all this, I think there can still be improvements to the Linkwitz 521.4 system. If I were to do it all over again I would use the top baffle 3 way, but use 4 Acoustic Elegance woofers either in 15" or 18". Cone area is king, and with a DSP it's much easier to turn it down than not having enough cone area. For example, in my space where I put the speakers, it's in a living room that connects to an open kitchen as well as a long hallway. I need more cone area than these 4 SEAS 10's. I use Dirac Live right now and when I tune for a rising target curve below 200hz it easily bottoms out the subwoofers. I can only do +2.5db from 200-20hz when I want +6-8db. The AE woofers/subs can easily play high enough to integrate into the midbass driver as well I think.

I'm not a flat to 20hz guy. I like a rising target curve into 20hz.
 
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