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Limited Room Size Acoustic problems and potential solutions/compromises

digitalfrost

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Since you didn't give a budget limit...

 

abdo123

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It's very naive to think Equalization will make a speaker sound just as good as if it was free standing.

The entire tonal balance gets messy because the baffle compensation needed in free standing is no longer applicable. On-axis response becomes completely out of whack too.

1662295938783.png

CEA2034%20--%20Arendal%201961%20Bookshelf.png
 
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Mnyb

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Dali has some on walls also in white sound is ”ok” but not more than that , brigth and a bit strained and grainy constrained midbass ? But listen for yourself if you can tolerate them , it migth work :) it can be room size depending
 

Waxx

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It's basicly speakers without baffle step compensation that you need, as the wall will make up for the loss. I've used Harbeth HL5+ against the wall and they had good bass like that. I've measured them in room and room modes were obovious, but otherwise it was very close to the supplied graph but the low between 100hz to FS, that was lited slight up in stead of down like in the graph. They belong to my ex, so i don't have access to them anymore.

It's a slightly coloured speaker altough (by purpose to a target curve says the brand), so maybe not your cup of tea. But that kind of bass response rolloff works well against the wall. It's a british speaker, so maybe more tailored to room sizes in that country.

Older Kef speakers have similar curves, now they are more flat, but i'm sure you can tune the active versions like that with the dsp. I never tried it altough (only used older Kef speakrs).
 
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MAB

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It's very naive to think Equalization will make a speaker sound just as good as if it was free standing.

The entire tonal balance gets messy because the baffle compensation needed in free standing is no longer applicable. On-axis response becomes completely out of whack too.

View attachment 228673
CEA2034%20--%20Arendal%201961%20Bookshelf.png
I agree, not possible to eq back to correct (I guess a fully active speaker where you have access to the filters of each driver… but that is a unicorn I think)
 

abdo123

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Personally i would get the speaker with the smoothest sound power if i'm putting it close to the walls.

CEA2034%20--%20ELAC%20UBR62.png
 

ZolaIII

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Only thing mesured hire like that what fall's on my mind would be picture frama alike IKEA - Sonos one's
With sub crossover set to 100 Hz and absorber directly behind I guess closed enclosure one's or with a kork in the bass port would work.
For example of measurements like that (sealed):
 

Kal Rubinson

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Lyngdorf and Steinway Lyngdorf.
Wisdom Audio.
 

FeddyLost

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Anybody else thinking about or implemented ways to minimise the visual impact of speakers on the room?
ATC HTS40 for example

Or cheaper Jamo D600 LCR if you add sub.

There are almost zero tests of on-wall/in-wall speakers, so i think some DRC will be required.
 

DanielT

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ATC HTS40 for example

Or cheaper Jamo D600 LCR if you add sub.

There are almost zero tests of on-wall/in-wall speakers, so i think some DRC will be required.
But the commercial interest is there:

"The global On-wall Speakers market size is projected to reach multi million by 2028, in comparison to 2021, at unexpected CAGR during 2022-2028 (Ask for Sample Report)."


Note that it is a report, a market study you can buy, so no results are reported in the link.
 

DSJR

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It's basicly speakers without baffle step compensation that you need, as the wall will make up for the loss. I've used Harbeth HL5+ against the wall and they had good bass like that. I've measured them in room and room modes were obovious, but otherwise it was very close to the supplied graph but the low between 100hz to FS, that was lited slight up in stead of down like in the graph. They belong to my ex, so i don't have access to them anymore.

It's a slightly coloured speaker altough (by purpose to a target curve says the brand), so maybe not your cup of tea. But that kind of bass response rolloff works well against the wall. It's a british speaker, so maybe more tailored to room sizes in that country.

Older Kef speakers have similar curves, now they are more flat, but i'm sure you can tune the active versions like that with the dsp. I never tried it altough (only used older Kef speakrs).
I can safely say the SHL5 (earlier non-plus version) do NOT like being too close to the wall behind them. NOT ONE BIT!!! :D

Things have moved on in Harbeth-land since the noughties however :)
 

Spkrdctr

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Good grief Charlie Brown could this be any more divisive?

Contrary to popular belief, all Americans are not all obnoxious, racist, axe murderers, or any of the adjectives that the rest of the world likes to call us.

Dare I say that we American's get labeled wrongly?

Your title is divisive I suggest you delete it and start over. So much division lately, this is about audio not politics, not race, not where you’re from so you have to act like we do from this part of the world.

As a human beings created by God aren’t we all on a level playing field?
Triggered!
 

tomtoo

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It's very naive to think Equalization will make a speaker sound just as good as if it was free standing.

The entire tonal balance gets messy because the baffle compensation needed in free standing is no longer applicable. On-axis response becomes completely out of whack too.

View attachment 228673
CEA2034%20--%20Arendal%201961%20Bookshelf.png

Could you explain this more detailed pls. I mean the measurements. How they are done?

That dip is hard to explain for me if the speaker is realy on the wall.
 
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Spkrdctr

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There are a lot of in wall speakers available. They don't have to be super expensive. It seems that would do the trick, but you are of course limited in speaker set up as it is fixed in the wall. It will never be an awesome setup but might be "good enough".
 

AdamG

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OK, well the title is a bit of joke, but you Americans have to be on your best behaviour if you want to engage with this thread, "why?" I hear you ask, shortly followed by "I do what I want, nobody gunna tell me what to....", well, because this is something that is Europe specific and that is living in houses/apartments that have rooms little bigger than the size of a rabbit hutch.

The crux of the matter is this. I'm kinda tired of having speakers protruding into my room, any way you cut it speakers away from the front wall just dominate the room and look intrusive. I have quite a large room by British standards, but no, it is just ugly have speakers out in the room.

So, what is the point of the thread? The point is to ask what kind of speaker is possible, with a maximum depth of 8", that can be put practically flush with the front wall and play to decent SPL levels with reasonable accuracy. White speakers are a must too. I think a floorstander would be fine, but a wall mounted speaker would be better still. Is there anything commercially available of note?

I understand I won't get low bass, but if I can get to 80hz and cross to sub/s, then maybe this is doable (then comes the problem of having subs take up floor space! It never ends, does it....)

Anybody else thinking about or implemented ways to minimise the visual impact of speakers on the room?

I enjoy music a lot and want quality equipment, I just don't want to have to give up so much floorspace and eye space to them. I'm trying to feng shui-ify my life somewhat.
Thread renamed to be less divisive and more focused on the actual issues/problems. If you don’t like the new title please send me a PM with your suggestions for revision. We are certainly open to any feedback or suggestions.

Thank you for your understanding and support.
 
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D

Digby

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Thread renamed to be less divisive and more focused on the actual issues/problems. If you don’t like the new title please send me a PM with your suggestions for revision. We are certainly open to any feedback or suggestions.
It was just supposed to be a bit of fun. I don't mind the new title, but the point was a joke title without a proper description would force everyone to read the thread, and then see the joke. I don't know how I could have made it more obvious without killing it stone dead, so I will relent from jokes for a little while.

They're actually very interesting, too bad there is no way to know how they actually perform or how low they can actually play and how loud.
Yes, I agree they do.

ATC HTS40 for example
Another interesting possibility. Not cheap, but not stratospherically expensive either.
 

cwatt

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OK, well the title is a bit of joke, but you Americans have to be on your best behaviour if you want to engage with this thread, "why?" I hear you ask, shortly followed by "I do what I want, nobody gunna tell me what to....", well, because this is something that is Europe specific and that is living in houses/apartments that have rooms little bigger than the size of a rabbit hutch.

The crux of the matter is this. I'm kinda tired of having speakers protruding into my room, any way you cut it speakers away from the front wall just dominate the room and look intrusive. I have quite a large room by British standards, but no, it is just ugly have speakers out in the room.

So, what is the point of the thread? The point is to ask what kind of speaker is possible, with a maximum depth of 8", that can be put practically flush with the front wall and play to decent SPL levels with reasonable accuracy. White speakers are a must too. I think a floorstander would be fine, but a wall mounted speaker would be better still. Is there anything commercially available of note?

I understand I won't get low bass, but if I can get to 80hz and cross to sub/s, then maybe this is doable (then comes the problem of having subs take up floor space! It never ends, does it....)

Anybody else thinking about or implemented ways to minimise the visual impact of speakers on the room?

I enjoy music a lot and want quality equipment, I just don't want to have to give up so much floorspace and eye space to them. I'm trying to feng shui-ify my life somewhat.
I have gone through a recent experiment to downsize/simplify my system and have gone from a top-notch 5.1 system with 2 subs and towers to no speakers (tv only), 2 small white inexpensive Arendal 1961 bookshelf speakers and now 2 largish white (custom painted) bookshelf speakers with a smallish sub and mini-dsp shd. I have reached a stage where less is more and good enough is good enough.

Like you the sight of multiple speakers and equipment in a multi-use room is no longer appealing. For me, enjoyment of the music/content these days is rarely impacted by the capabilities of the speaker or equipment. That is not to say I do not prefer larger, more capable speakers and multi-subs! I am now more willing to accept the inevitable tradeoffs.

My listening levels have decreased over time and I rarely critical listen so squeezing the last ounce of performance out of speakers/equipment is not at the top of my priority list. As much as I believe in the audio science there is the realty of dealing with a budget, size/space limitations (eg speakers have to fit in a certain spot), aesthetics/integration with room, poor room acoustics, effort / $ required to obtain "text book" results, etc, that ultimately dictates my choices. How do you define "reasonable accuracy"?

I have found small white speakers on slim stands/wall/bookshelf do blend in better than towers or non-white finishes. My previous towers were quite narrow and in a lovely wood finish, however, the Arendal 1961 bookshelf speakers on slim stands disappeared more. These speakers are 6" deep, have no screws on the front of the speakers and a decent finish for a reasonable sum. They play quite loud and have extension to 80 hertz. A great little speaker that might meet your requirements. You are going to have to try the speakers in your room with your music to see if they meet your criteria. The bookshelf speakers that replaced my 1961s are quite a bit larger and even though these new speakers are objectively better (unbelievable bass) than the 1961's I do miss the blend-in the background/small size of the 1961s. White speakers, white speaker stands and aesthetics of the speakers have made a difference in our multi-use environment.

Besides small bookshelf speakers, architectural speakers (on-wall, in-wall) could be a good option and some members already mentioned this. Kal mentioned Lyngdorf on-wall speakers (FR-1) - no clue how these measure. PSB have on-wall speakers. For in-wall, Kef, Revel and Triad have good options. I believe Amir has tested some in-wall speakers. Also reviews over at EAC. All of these options will of course have tradeoffs and not be as accurate as free standing speakers. At least for on-wall you can try these in your space to see how they fare. The in-wall speakers will be a big leap of faith, require construction and be a pain to take with you if you decide to move.

Lastly, custom designed bookshelf speakers that meet your size and aesthetic requirements might be an option depending on your budget. There are a number of excellent speaker designers on this forum that you can reach out to.

In terms of subs, white is generally harder to find. Kef KC62, SVS 3000 micro come in white. Sigberg Audio offers the INKOGNITO sub (tall and skinny) that can be hidden under furniture, attached to a wall or used as a table. If you go custom, the sky is your limit in terms of size and colours.

Ultimately you will have to decide on your prioritization of aesthetics vs accuracy vs budget vs performance capabilities and test the speakers in your room with your music to see if they pass muster.
 
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