Lily Audio Genesis One Headphone Review

[JMAudio]

We just bought the G1 and feel our Sony TA-A1AES and B&K Reference 2220 amp using speaker taps w/ Zynsonix XLR 0 db converter box would drive any headphone - and did notice the some 'distortion' audible - i feel like although i purchased a new version - I was sent the older version possibly.

We did reached out to Lilly for confirmation. We do have the Aune A17 as well and tried the G1 with that amp as well and feel it didn't satisfy the distortion issue or gaping hole in some frequencies - noticeably the mids. We strongly believe we were sent the older version by mistake- even though the box and order confirm it is the latest version. We will wait for Lilly to get back to us. We were so enthusiastic about carrying the G1 headphone in our shop - we are still hopeful.

 

[solderdude]

What pads were used ?

 

[JMAudio]

What pads were used ?

they sent all the pads to me- I used the leatherish ones with small and large holes

 

[solderdude]

Those should give the best results.

The Sony can put out 18V and should play somewhat loud but can see it clipping (and thus distort) at louder levels.
B&K should be able to deliver 42V (120Vpp).
The driver can handle 160Vpp.
Don't expect planar magnetic levels though.

 

[JMAudio]

Those should give the best results.

The Sony can put out 18V and should play somewhat loud but can see it clipping (and thus distort) at louder levels.
B&K should be able to deliver 42V (120Vpp).
The driver can handle 160Vpp.
Don't expect planar magnetic levels though.

The Sony TA-A1AES is rated to deliver 80 watts per channel at 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20,000 Hz) with 0.09% THD. Using simple audio physics formulas, this corresponds to an output voltage of roughly 25.3 V per channel into an 8-ohm load (\(V = \sqrt{P \times R}\)) and 34.6 V (RMS) into 4 Ω

 

[AetherDrive]

We just bought the G1 and feel our Sony TA-A1AES and B&K Reference 2220 amp using speaker taps w/ Zynsonix XLR 0 db converter box would drive any headphone - and did notice the some 'distortion' audible - we feel like although we bought a new version - we were sent the older version. We did reached out to Lilly for confirmation. We do have the Aune A17 as well and tried the G1 with that amp as well and feel it didn't satisfy the distortion issue or gaping hole in some frequencies - noticeably the mids. We strongly believe we were sent the older version by mistake- even though the box and order confirm it is the latest version. We will wait for Lilly to get back to us. We were so enthusiastic about carrying the G1 headphone in our shop - we are still hopeful.

What's the expected load for the Zynsonix convertor? Have you tried running it straight off the tap to see if the distortion is still there?

 

[JMAudio]

What's the expected load for the Zynsonix convertor? Have you tried running it straight off the tap to see if the distortion is still there?

The zynbox has 0db offset for attenuation so me driving these safely or any other ribbon headphone like the GL1200 or RAAL or Susvara or tungsten etc was never ever a problem - i don’t want to connect my amps directly to any headphone without a box for the sake of overload and damage to my amps - if 350x2 or 700 watts from my b&k can’t make these sing properly then like I mentioned I either can’t appreciate them as others have or I was sent an older set - either way it’s a very interesting concept and the company is very attentive to improving I think as they progress the technology- I really love the concept

 

[solderdude]

The Sony TA-A1AES is rated to deliver 80 watts per channel at 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20,000 Hz) with 0.09% THD. Using simple audio physics formulas, this corresponds to an output voltage of roughly 25.3 V per channel into an 8-ohm load (\(V = \sqrt{P \times R}\)) and 34.6 V (RMS) into 4 Ω

Ah the Sony spec sheet mentioned 2x 80W and impedance said 4ohm.. that's what I went with:

The US site mentioned 4-16 ohm.

Hifi engine states: Power output: 80 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
So if the power output is in 8ohm then it would deliver about 25V so (probably just under) 160W in 4 ohm and 40W in 16ohm so about 2.9dB less loud compared to the B&K.

 

[JMAudio]

Ah the Sony spec sheet mentioned 2x 80W and impedance said 4ohm.. that's what I went with:
View attachment 544755

The US site mentioned 4-16 ohm.

Hifi engine states: Power output: 80 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
So if the power output is in 8ohm then it would deliver about 25V so (probably just under) 160W in 4 ohm and 40W in 16ohm so about 2.9dB less loud compared to the B&K

Yes as I calculated I believe ? Not sure if my math was off or you were repeating it or i
Missed something that needed clarification

 

[solderdude]

You wrote 34.6 V (RMS) into 4 Ω but the voltage will be the same (25V in both 8ohm and 4ohm)

 

[JMAudio]

You wrote 34.6 V (RMS) into 4 Ω but the voltage will be the same (25V in both 8ohm and 4ohm)

the Sony TA-A1ES delivers 150 watts per channel into 4 ohms (both channels driven, from 20 to 20,000 Hz) at 0.01% Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/res/manuals/W001/W0010966M.pdf not sure how this can be the same - maybe I am not wording my calculations correctly - either way its a Sugar Honey Ice- T ton of power - agreed?

we are detracting from the essence of the OP- and discussion - this thread is dedicated to impressions of the G1 and I am gracefully dropping out until I hear back on my set which is going back to Lilly to inspect

 

[solderdude]

The G1 does not draw much power (current) though and only the output voltage is what is important not the Wattage in either 4 or 8 ohm.

TA-A1ES = 25V = 103dB peak (@ 1khz), B&K = 42V = 108dB peak, which is not very loud.
Max SPL (at 1kHz) the G1 can reach is 111dB SPL which requires 160Vpp = 56Vrms (= 392W in 8ohm = 784W in 4ohm)
In the bass the levels are 5dB higher, in the treble even 10dB higher. Fortunately such levels will not be reached with music.
Note that most headphones can reach 110dB with 0.3V to 4V (depending on sensitivity).
This makes the G1 an incredibly 'hard to drive' (insensitive) headphone, yet requiring very little power.

At 40Hz, 108dB SPL the THD was 9%. Any half decent planar magnetic is 0.5% at the same level.
At 1kHz (103dB SPL) the THD was 1.1%. Any half decent planar magnetic is below 0.1% at the same level.
The measurement results are for 25V (so at the limit of the Sony)

This means it isn't strange to hear distortion at higher levels and this headphone is not intended for that.
Sounds fine at 'back-ground' to 'all-day' listening levels. Not really suited for folks that like it loud.

 

[JMAudio]

The G1 does not draw much power (current) though and only the output voltage is what is important not the Wattage in either 4 or 8 ohm.

TA-A1ES = 25V = 103dB peak (@ 1khz), B&K = 42V = 108dB peak, which is not very loud.
Max SPL (at 1kHz) the G1 can reach is 111dB SPL which requires 160Vpp = 56Vrms (= 392W in 8ohm = 784W in 4ohm)
In the bass the levels are 5dB higher, in the treble even 10dB higher. Fortunately such levels will not be reached with music.
Note that most headphones can reach 110dB with 0.3V to 4V (depending on sensitivity).
This makes the G1 an incredibly 'hard to drive' (insensitive) headphone, yet requiring very little power.

At 40Hz, 108dB SPL the THD was 9%. Any half decent planar magnetic is 0.5% at the same level.
At 1kHz (103dB SPL) the THD was 1.1%. Any half decent planar magnetic is below 0.1% at the same level.
The measurement results are for 25V (so at the limit of the Sony)

This means it isn't strange to hear distortion at higher levels and this headphone is not intended for that.
Sounds fine at 'back-ground' to 'all-day' listening levels. Not really suited for folks that like it loud.

Ok I said I wouldn’t reply until I heard back from lily on my set - to be clear - I tried the $7-9k Coffman Lore, the Ray Samuel’s Apache, the Ray Samuel’s Intruder which is 36v in balanced (according to Ray Samuel’s on several phone calls (person to person) with me discussing voltage- he said it will drive anything on the planet he mentioned no other amp he knows of has so much voltage except maybe his B21 Raider), two dedicated speaker amps already mentioned with a combined weight of around 100lbs, the Aune a17, the ibasso Kunlun, and then I gave up - I could try 4 other amps but I didn’t think they would drive them without distortion as well as what I tried or mentioned. The mid bass was missing for me; a very v "OR u" shape which may be ok for some but I gave up and figured maybe my set was corrupted in shipping so, again Lilly will get back to me on it - I spent hours trying - my best foot forward. I await for Lilly to test the one of purchased.

 

[solderdude]

The G1 is U-shaped in sound. (read the plot as if it is a speaker)

It has measurable higher distortion than most other headphones.
It is limited in max. SPL by design (111dB at 1kHz).
NO amp is going to fix that.

What you get for $ 1200.- is:
A unique driver (solidstate ceramic) that is unusually insensitive (76dB/V).
Limited maximum SPL (111dB and requires 56V to reach which is also the maximum allowed voltage = 392W in 8ohm = 784W in 4ohm so don't go there.)
Tastefully (to most) elevated bass with a good to decent seal which is easy to obtain because of the ergonomically shaped design.
Well suited for older pop/rock recordings (the bass-shy stuff) and classical music at background or 'all-day' listening levels.
Frequency response way beyond 30kHz with tons of detail (not smooth/soft treble but elevated and quite position sensitive).
A pleasantly colored sound that may or may not be your cup of tea.
Very comfortable headphone.
Ears are not ever going to touch the driver nor pads, no matter how big they are.

This headphone is not going to be everyone's friend, mainly because of its limited max. SPL which requires a LOT of voltage (speaker amp 200W/8ohm) to get there and even then is not going to be distortion free regardless if one has an amp with 0.001% or 1%.
Not to be used with any portable gear or wimpy headphone outs.

It is a unique headphone in many ways.

 

[Babs776]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. We will test it and share the result soon.

I don’t think anything is going to save these headphones but you could potentially save your company by being the first Kickstarter headphone developer of the many very well-meaning but unfortunately unsuccessful to amend it and build a customer base entirely off that. I don’t imagine it’ll be cheap but by doing a full redesign, taking back anyone’s who isn’t happy with it and re-issuing a functional one even if it’s dramatically scaled back with a steep discount or free unit of your next headphone would endear yourself to the community. With the number of times hobbyists have been burned by boutiques and startups, any act of contrition is going to go way, way farther than scrambling to patch holes in a sinking flagship.

Even if this pair ends up turning a profit, the odds you’re able to sell anything new probably aren’t great. If financially possible, I’d wave a white flag on it and find a creative way to make it good with buyers in a splash move that cops to it not having met expectations and gets you positive PR. Even if you take a loss, you can bridge that into your next release and all you need to do at that point is produce a (less expensive, less ambitious) working wheel, not reinvent it and people will buy on the redemption arc if it measures well. By humanizing it and framing it as a big shot that missed you’re trying to make up for, you do something most are simply too prideful or over-leveraged to and a bad release becomes a foundational building block in consumer trust moving forward.

 

[tonyng]

Ok I said I wouldn’t reply until I heard back from lily on my set - to be clear - I tried the $7-9k Coffman Lore, the Ray Samuel’s Apache, the Ray Samuel’s Intruder which is 36v in balanced (according to Ray Samuel’s on several phone calls (person to person) with me discussing voltage- he said it will drive anything on the planet he mentioned no other amp he knows of has so much voltage except maybe his B21 Raider), two dedicated speaker amps already mentioned with a combined weight of around 100lbs, the Aune a17, the ibasso Kunlun, and then I gave up - I could try 4 other amps but I didn’t think they would drive them without distortion as well as what I tried or mentioned. The mid bass was missing for me; a very v "OR u" shape which may be ok for some but I gave up and figured maybe my set was corrupted in shipping so, again Lilly will get back to me on it - I spent hours trying - my best foot forward. I await for Lilly to test the one of purchased.

Hi John. Tony from Lily Audio is here.

We actually replied to your email before these comments were posted. It looks like it may have gotten missed. In your email to us, you mentioned the headphones weren't loud enough for your setup. I'm attaching our reply here, since it includes some info on power requirements that might be useful to others reading this thread as well.

On a related note, the Genesis One has now been measured by multiple independent parties. Its distortion is relatively higher than some other headphones, and that's largely a function of its diaphragm mass, distortion generally scales with diaphragm weight, which is part of why planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones tend to measure very low in that regard. That said, according to the measurement results, at a reasonable listening level this distortion should be inaudible (some would even argue it's preferable).

As others have pointed out, there's no perfect solution in headphone design. Every choice is a tradeoff. The Genesis One was designed with a notably heavy diaphragm (around 3.5g) specifically to deliver physical bass impact in an open-back headphone.

Just wanted to share this context with everyone here.

 

[JMAudio]

Hi John. Tony from Lily Audio is here.

We actually replied to your email before these comments were posted. It looks like it may have gotten missed. In your email to us, you mentioned the headphones weren't loud enough for your setup. I'm attaching our reply here, since it includes some info on power requirements that might be useful to others reading this thread as well.

On a related note, the Genesis One has now been measured by multiple independent parties. Its distortion is relatively higher than some other headphones, and that's largely a function of its diaphragm mass, distortion generally scales with diaphragm weight, which is part of why planar magnetic and electrostatic headphones tend to measure very low in that regard. That said, according to the measurement results, at a reasonable listening level this distortion should be inaudible (some would even argue it's preferable).

As others have pointed out, there's no perfect solution in headphone design. Every choice is a tradeoff. The Genesis One was designed with a notably heavy diaphragm (around 3.5g) specifically to deliver physical bass impact in an open-back headphone.

Just wanted to share this context with everyone here.

excellent and i did see that email- was waiting to see if you tested my copy for what I mentioned - but it seems like they all behave this way which is normal functioning which is reassuring to hear