LG Solution for Full-MQA

[Vincent Kars]

I am not sure what the equivalent uncompressed PCM datarate is for 320 kbps MP3 with today's encoders, but it is higher than 320 kbps and less than 16bit/44.1kHz of CDs

Bit unclear to me.
If one encodes a 16/44.1 PCM to 320 kbs and decode it back to PCM, the result will be a 16/44.1 PCM file.
To the best of my knowledge, you can't express the information that is thrown away by MP3's psychoacoustic model (masking, etc) in a changed data rate

LDAC BT with its 990kbps bitrate, you may get close to 24/96 PCM bitrate

I don't share this optimism.
LDAC 990 kbs
CD 2x16x44.1=1411.2 kbs
2x24x96=3072 kbs

If LDAC works like FLAC it is probably able to stream CD quality at its best.

 

[Jimbob54]

Bit unclear to me.
If one encodes a 16/44.1 PCM to 320 kbs and decode it back to PCM, the result will be a 16/44.1 PCM file.
To the best of my knowledge, you can't express the information that is thrown away by MP3's psychoacoustic model (masking, etc) in a changed data rate



I don't share this optimism.
LDAC 990 kbs
CD 2x16x44.1=1411.2 kbs
2x24x96=3072 kbs

If LDAC works like FLAC it is probably able to stream CD quality at its best.

That's my (non technical) understanding too. Hence telling the OP not to even think about worrying about unfolding MQA then streaming via bluetooth. And thats assuming there is any merit in unfolding MQA full stop. You certainly cant then transmit that extra data over BT.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Bit unclear to me.
If one encodes a 16/44.1 PCM to 320 kbs and decode it back to PCM, the result will be a 16/44.1 PCM file.
To the best of my knowledge, you can't express the information that is thrown away by MP3's psychoacoustic model (masking, etc) in a changed data rate

I was speaking rather vaguely. Since PCM is not the most space-efficient, and can be compressed losslessly, but MP3 is already well-compressed, by "equivalent PCM bit rate" I meant something like pick a PCM bit rate such that when compressed to FLAC, the bit rate is approximately 320kbps to match the MP3. I was just trying to express the overall quantity of information content of various formats in terms of a common measure - uncompressed PCM which if compressed losslessly to FLAC say, would match the bitrate of the other format. Yes, the MP3-equivalent PCM file is fictitious, and its information content will not match that in the MP3 file. And yes, I know different degrees of FLAC compression are possible with trade-off with the encode/decode computational cost. I am sure there are rigorous measures of irreducible information size in computer science, but I was speaking in a hand-wavy intuitive way.

I don't share this optimism.
LDAC 990 kbs
CD 2x16x44.1=1411.2 kbs
2x24x96=3072 kbs

If LDAC works like FLAC it is probably able to stream CD quality at its best.

I agree with you, it is probably optimistic, based on Sony's marketing claims. Yes, LDAC is an efficient compressed Bluetooth format, apparently a little lossy to stay within 990kbps, so you are right probably the "equivalent uncompressed PCM bitrate" is closer to CD quality than 24/96. The codec will accept up to 24/96 input (I don't know if they mean each channel or sum of two channels), and lossily compress that down to 990kbps.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

That's my (non technical) understanding too. Hence telling the OP not to even think about worrying about unfolding MQA then streaming via bluetooth. And thats assuming there is any merit in unfolding MQA full stop. You certainly cant then transmit that extra data over BT.

HiBy claims 192kHz sampling rate can be transmitted over their UAT BT protocol (which uses a higher bitrate than LDAC), but only HiBy devices and maybe a Shanling have UAT capability. Plus, this is a developer's claim, to be viewed with caution. At that point, why not jump to regular WiFi streaming, where data rates may not be constrained by power limitations?

 

[Jimbob54]

HiBy claims 192kHz sampling rate can be transmitted over their UAT BT protocol (which uses a higher bitrate than LDAC), but only HiBy devices and maybe a Shanling have UAT capability. Plus, this is a developer's claim, to be viewed with caution. At that point, why not jump to regular WiFi streaming, where data rates may not be constrained by power limitations?

Would be my view also. Or hard wire for desktop use and use BT for convenience elsewhere

 

[mk05]

Definitely the iFi is outputting S/PDIF over 3.5mm coax which is basically PCM limited to 24-bit 96kHz, IIRC. It should be perfectly compatible with the coax input on the SHD Studio and SHD. Also, when I mentioned the HiBy R3 Pro, I meant it as an alternative to the iFi Zen Blue, and not to the LG. The R3 Pro has two-way BT including LDAC and UAT, and can receive BT/WiFi and output S/PDIF over coax to the miniDSP (though this needs to be verified).

...connect the LG directly to the SHD Studio using a USB-C to USB 2.0B cable, but you also want to use Bluetooth with best possible SQ at other times, for convenience...

Thank you for explaining the steps to ensure that we are all on the same page. I appreciate that. I read this post over the weekend, and took some time to read it again to understand everything. I accept that Bluetooth is limited, and that MQA is not possible on that front (yet, hopefully soon!). I wanted to use USB for the MQA solution as the chain shows below:
- LG V phone > 6ft USB C to USB 2.0 B cable > miniDSP SHD Studio > 3ft Mogami Gold XLR (per Amir instruction lol) > Hypex NC400s > 3ft Canare 4s11 > KEF R900

Now I just learned that AndroidOS or LG has denied the usage of USB C as being capable of (MQA) audio output. I don't know why I simply assumed so, since my Google Pixel phones can. You are correct that it appears I need to go from digital, back to analog, and again to digital with the LG, so it appears that I will no longer consider this exercise. MQA can burn in hell until a different phone manufacturer allows for MQA transport via USB C.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Thank you for explaining the steps to ensure that we are all on the same page. I appreciate that. I read this post over the weekend, and took some time to read it again to understand everything. I accept that Bluetooth is limited, and that MQA is not possible on that front (yet, hopefully soon!). I wanted to use USB for the MQA solution as the chain shows below:
- LG V phone > 6ft USB C to USB 2.0 B cable > miniDSP SHD Studio > 3ft Mogami Gold XLR (per Amir instruction lol) > Hypex NC400s > 3ft Canare 4s11 > KEF R900

Now I just learned that AndroidOS or LG has denied the usage of USB C as being capable of (MQA) audio output. I don't know why I simply assumed so, since my Google Pixel phones can. You are correct that it appears I need to go from digital, back to analog, and again to digital with the LG, so it appears that I will no longer consider this exercise. MQA can burn in hell until a different phone manufacturer allows for MQA transport via USB C.

You're welcome. Your planned system would have been audio heaven. Pity that MQA output over USB is not possible on the LG phone. Likely due to the DRM nature of MQA. You are probably getting only an MQA decode on the Google Pixel phones, which is slightly less than CD quality according to experts, and so MQA don't care if you output that in its digital form. Your LG phone on the other hand probably does a MQA decode followed by a full MQA unfold, and that is the supposed high-resolution version that MQA and their music industry customers do not want output in digital form through USB and possibly pirated. That unfolding is sanctioned only in a DAC, where the output is analog and safe from bitperfect copying. So it is unlikely that your hoped-for phone will come along which outputs decoded and unfolded MQA via USB C.

 

[MnMadMan]

I would be surprised if this works with MQA.

The last unfolding ( upsampling, minimum phase filter) is done by a DAC having a MQA licence.
It detects the MQA watermark.
If you do DSP like the miniDSP does, your probably "destroy" this watermark.

LG not only licensed the MQA technology it was featured at the 2018 Hi End Audio show. You can read in Stereophile / 2020 recommended components. Completely bypasses the android tech and uses a full featured, dedicated audio chip. As soon as I set one up, I'll share results and compare. Also looking for a Roon Nucleus Plus for home.

 

[Chrise36]

You're welcome. Your planned system would have been audio heaven. Pity that MQA output over USB is not possible on the LG phone. Likely due to the DRM nature of MQA. You are probably getting only an MQA decode on the Google Pixel phones, which is slightly less than CD quality according to experts, and so MQA don't care if you output that in its digital form. Your LG phone on the other hand probably does a MQA decode followed by a full MQA unfold, and that is the supposed high-resolution version that MQA and their music industry customers do not want output in digital form through USB and possibly pirated. That unfolding is sanctioned only in a DAC, where the output is analog and safe from bitperfect copying. So it is unlikely that your hoped-for phone will come along which outputs decoded and unfolded MQA via USB C.

Hi since i am using the LG V40 as a streamer to a car DSP through a DOUK audio usb to optical converter what bit depth am i getting from the phone with TIDAL 16 or 24bit; what if i use a windows platform like a microsoft surface tablet?I was under the impression the sound was better from my laptop against the phone on the same setup running TIDAL.

 

[JustAnandaDourEyedDude]

Hi since i am using the LG V40 as a streamer to a car DSP through a DOUK audio usb to optical converter what bit depth am i getting from the phone with TIDAL 16 or 24bit; what if i use a windows platform like a microsoft surface tablet?I was under the impression the sound was better from my laptop against the phone on the same setup running TIDAL.

I do not know the answer, sorry. My own setup is very simple and so far I do not aim for digital resolution above 44.1kHz/16-bit. Likely you are getting the 16 or 24 bit Tidal stream of the LG V40 through the Douk Audio optical output to the car DSP, and the same thing from the Win10 MS Surface Tablet. The Douk Audio U2 supports up to 24-bit 192kHz at its S/PDIF output (Toslink optical or Coaxial 3.5mm metal). Your impression of the difference in sound may be psychological in origin, and quite likely there is no actual difference in the sound from the two different sources. Or else Tidal may decide to down-sample to the LG V40 because of reduced available bandwidth. Or else down-sampling of one or the other chain may be happening in any part of the software. If you provide more info on your specific chains, one of the experts on ASR may chime in with a diagnosis or advice on how to find out what you are actually getting in each of the two chains. Any DSP used in the car audio would be far cruder than any supposed refinement from MQA.

 

[Chrise36]

I do not know the answer, sorry. My own setup is very simple and so far I do not aim for digital resolution above 44.1kHz/16-bit. Likely you are getting the 16 or 24 bit Tidal stream of the LG V40 through the Douk Audio optical output to the car DSP, and the same thing from the Win10 MS Surface Tablet. The Douk Audio U2 supports up to 24-bit 192kHz at its S/PDIF output (Toslink optical or Coaxial 3.5mm metal). Your impression of the difference in sound may be psychological in origin, and quite likely there is no actual difference in the sound from the two different sources. Or else Tidal may decide to down-sample to the LG V40 because of reduced available bandwidth. Or else down-sampling of one or the other chain may be happening in any part of the software. If you provide more info on your specific chains, one of the experts on ASR may chime in with a diagnosis.

It is really confusing because according to John Darko downloaded TIDAL hi res content on android is not streamable through usb to a DAC even with UAPP.Apparently on apple devices it is streamable.I know the converter is capable is capable of 24bit output and the dsp is capable of receiving 24bit up to 192khz.The question is the output of the source and what should i use keep the phone buy apple tablet or windows tablet?I am interested particularly in TIDAL.

 

[breesyaudio]

I cannot play some Master tracks on my LG G8S Android 12 device?
Using Tidal.
Why is it? Does anyone have same issue? Will appreciate any reply

 

[Chrise36]

Hi! I am also considering buying a LG dac phone. Either the g7 measured here or LG v40/50. Torned between a portable dac/amp with MQA or these phones. Cheaapest MQA device i found was at Aliexpress at 60~70 usd. Usb dongle. So if anyone has a v40/50 or G7 maybe 8 (?) i want to heat what u think about it!

V40 still cost over 600 new i Norway and no one to buy in the used market, so im saving alot of money buying on ebay/amazon WITH shipping and 25%vat

For people considering buying the V40 used:
If you need high spl the power of the phone is a bit low.

 

[Jmudrick]

FWIW I use my old V30 as streamer in my guest room with analog out to a pair of Kali LP-6. Sounds terrific. V50 used or refurbished is soooo cheap it's hard to argue against if MQA is what you want.