LFE in a stereo downmix

[KMO]

I will just add the extra step of adjusting my subwoofer amp knob by ear.

Hang on, for all the rest of this thread you didn't have a subwoofer - you've been talking about downmixing into L+R speakers...

 

[mhardy6647]

ahh, the CAT scan -- a long-time go-to tool in my troubleshooting armementarium.
Sadly, the warranties on our two platforms expired (2018 and 2019, respectively), and new parts were NLA.

AM radio (non-energized) CAT scan


Nearfield response CAT scan


Confirming failed surround diagnosis via CAT scan

 

[dasdoing]

Hang on, for all the rest of this thread you didn't have a subwoofer - you've been talking about downmixing into L+R speakers...

I didn't think it was relevant, but I have a 2.1 system.
still I downmix to 2.0 cause my bassmanagment is later in the chain

 

[Ron Texas]

I tried to use the Copy command in Equalizer APO but get a loud thump when the sound starts and ends. What am I missing?

 

[ernestcarl]

There's a way to remove the 10dB difference in the LFE channel within JRiver if one were to perform the bass management manually.

I haven't found a need for this yet, but it can definitely be set up and stored as just one more DSP preset to load whenever desired.

The following is my bass managed (BM) left channel along with the LFE channel swept separately at the MLP -- plus combined in a single sweep.

*One can manually mute the .1 LFE channel just as well if wanted.

As far as I'm aware there are only a few legal platforms that allow one to stream multichannel videos within Windows e.g. Netflix, Microsoft movies & TV app, Disney+


Given a choice between the stereo and MCH stream, I always use the latter. I'm not sure if there's a good reason why I should limit myself to the stereo version only.

 

[Andysu]

ahh, the CAT scan -- a long-time go-to tool in my troubleshooting armementarium.
Sadly, the warranties on our two platforms expired (2018 and 2019, respectively), and new parts were NLA.

AM radio (non-energized) CAT scan


Nearfield response CAT scan


Confirming failed surround diagnosis via CAT scan

that is a work of Cat art . is that a bottom pic JBL lools like it could or once was a JBL . now CatBL

 

[mhardy6647]

that is a work of Cat art . is that a bottom pic JBL lools like it could or once was a JBL . now CatBL

Pioneer HPM-1100 -- very JBL-esque woofer.
It will be recalled that Bart Locanthi worked for both at one time or another (also Marantz). Pioneer's HPM-100 was a barely disguised homage to/ripoff of the JBL L-100. The HPM-1100 was kind of an uber-HPM-100.
Some of Pioneer's high-end/pro sound TAD brand's woofers (which would come along a... ahem... tad later) were quite similar to this Pioneer woofer, as well.



The flip side of the HPM-1100 woofer.

Sorry for the transient thread detour.

 

[Andysu]

Pioneer HPM-1100 -- very JBL-esque woofer.
It will be recalled that Bart Locanthi worked for both at one time or another (also Marantz). Pioneer's HPM-100 was a barely disguised homage to/ripoff of the JBL L-100. The HPM-1100 was kind of an uber-HPM-100.
Some of Pioneer's high-end/pro sound TAD brand's woofers (which would come along a... ahem... tad later) were quite similar to this Pioneer woofer, as well.



The flip side of the HPM-1100 woofer.

Sorry for the transient thread detour.

part of the shape of back sort of looks like jbl i have 2242, sort of no not sort of oh which one of i many of them with single vent the other three vent around the sides

Sooty crawled though the port few times i had to remove the jbl sub driver

one time kitten Sooty crawled out back though one of three sub bass ports

Magic looks under jbl 4645c wondering why i placed it facing down part of shhhsub experiment

LFE.1 with real jbl cinema pa subs

had the sub/lfe.1 response like this jan 2020 and different now and i forget which peq filters i used on the fbq 2496 i should have typed down the figures

 

[digitalfrost]

I tried to use the Copy command in Equalizer APO but get a loud thump when the sound starts and ends. What am I missing?

Can you show the command? Try setting unused channels to 0.

 

[Ron Texas]

Can you show the command? Try setting unused channels to 0.

I tried yours and another one with unused channels set to 0. Both gave a loud pop.

 

[dasdoing]

I tried yours and another one with unused channels set to 0. Both gave a loud pop.

if you used my line from post 37, it is NOT supoused to be used as a single liner. I do use an atenuation before it that I ajust to avoid clipping

 

[dasdoing]

with that beeing said, I had that pop situation before, and I think that it is a bug that can happen in certain situations. iirc it would happen when I copy to channels with arbitury names to make bass managment and route those back to my subwoofer channel. I just used two of the before muted channles and it didn't happen again

 

[Ron Texas]

if you used my line from post 37, it is NOT supoused to be used as a single liner. I do use an atenuation before it that I ajust to avoid clipping

There is attenuation before.

 

[davidc]

To head back to the posters original thread, I also have an Nvidia Shield Pro and send the output to a 2 channel DAC and I have speakers that go to 25hz. I know your problem! This only really became an issue for me with the Shield upgrade to Android 11 which broke the ability of some media apps to connect with network attached storage (this bug is actually the fault of the apps not being updated to Android 11 specs on file permissions). My app of choice was MrMC, which had the option to downmix the LFE channel to the 2 channel mix. I know of no other working app that offers this. Unfortunately MrMC hasn't been updated in almost 2 years on Android, and the NAS issue won't be fixed, so I had to find another solution. I have spent countless hours researching, finding only a partial solution.

First off, I have no problems with any of the streaming platforms, Netflix HBO etc., all mix in the LFE track or have a full stereo track embedded in their content already. The problem is in 3rd party video apps like Kodi, etc. Most do not send the LFE track to a 2 channel audio system. I don't know if this is the fault of the app or the Shields 2 channel downmixing, but I think it is the apps. The one app I've found that does pass the LFE track is VLC. So that is what I am using. It only works when I have the Shields audio settings set to downmix to 2 channel and Dolby Digital enabled. No other modes work. I use USB audio out for this. I have also tried 5 different HDMI Audio converter boxes with Toslink out, and I have had mixed results, VLC in that configuration is the only way it passes LFE.

First off was finding a test track that is in Dolby digital format and had a LFE test in it. I found one after much searching. About 3 minutes into the track is where the LFE test begins. You can download this and put on your media streamer locally. Try this track using different media apps, you will get different results with each. Most apps do not send the LFE channel when the system is set to 2 channel. This issue is compounded by the fact that many surround mixes (at least the mixes that come from the video transcodings of most MKV files etc.) don't really follow the best practices about the L+R channels, and cut off the frequencies under about 80hz and send the lower frequencies to the LFE instead. Hence you don't get any frequencies below about 80hz when you have your system setup in 2 channel.

So for me I use VLC and set my system up to use Dolby digital in the sound settings when I want to play move and TV show files. Then I have to reset it to non Dolby Digital when I'm done, because I don't like what it does with other apps.

I understand the MrMC is still actively supported as an Apple TV app, so I might bite the bullet and try an Apple TV, but this is a hard ask, since I strongly dislike the Apple Ecosystem.

Good luck!

Your dropbox appears to have this file deleted. Can you please tell me where you got it from? I am trying to determine if a new setting in my Denon x4800h allows me to mix the LFE channel into my front main speakers. (I have a 5.0 setup). Please see my post below.

 

[davidc]

I have a 5.0 system with main speakers very capable of reproducing the LFE channel.
There is a new setting in my Denon AVR-x4800h called "LFE Distribution".

From page 238 in the manual:

LFE Distribution Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the large floor speakers.
Off (Default): Floor Speakers do not play LFE signals.
–20 dB – 0 dB Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the large floor speakers.

NOTE: This setting cannot be set when the “Front”, “Center”, “Surround” and “Surround Back” settings of “Speaker Configuration” are all “Small”.

As usual, Denon does not make it perfectly clear, but it seems this setting will mix the LFE channel into my main speakers. Do you all agree? It is on page 238 of the manual here: https://www.denon.com/on/demandware...f2a/downloads/avr-x4800h-owners-manual-en.pdf

 

[Great Sun Jester]

Try JRiver, instead.

Beat me to it Kal.

 

[Blew]

As usual, Denon does not make it perfectly clear, but it seems this setting will mix the LFE channel into my main speakers. Do you all agree?

Yes, it should as long as the front speakers are set to "large" as per page 227.

You can test the low frequencies using this page. Files are downloadable if you pay the small fee to register.

The Ultimate Bass Test | Ultra Low Frequency Range Test

A frequency sweep from 10 Hz up to 200 Hz.

www.audiocheck.net

Also note that you could use a dedicated DSP device in between the media player and DAC to do the downmix. Typically you will get a better SINAD this way. See this thread for a DIY option on the Rpi: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...between-an-usb-source-ipad-and-usb-dac.25414/

 

[peng]

I have a 5.0 system with main speakers very capable of reproducing the LFE channel.
There is a new setting in my Denon AVR-x4800h called "LFE Distribution".

From page 238 in the manual:

LFE Distribution Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the large floor speakers.
Off (Default): Floor Speakers do not play LFE signals.
–20 dB – 0 dB Adjusts the amount of LFE signal sent to the large floor speakers.

NOTE: This setting cannot be set when the “Front”, “Center”, “Surround” and “Surround Back” settings of “Speaker Configuration” are all “Small”.

As usual, Denon does not make it perfectly clear, but it seems this setting will mix the LFE channel into my main speakers. Do you all agree? It is on page 238 of the manual here: https://www.denon.com/on/demandware...f2a/downloads/avr-x4800h-owners-manual-en.pdf

I am very curious about this post, as someone asked a similar (may be the same) question on Audioholic.com very recently, and I responded by quoting page 238 in the manual, same as what you just did in your post. I guess that's just coincidence...

Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

So, I confused here. Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers. I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion. I do not have a subwoofer. I was under the impression that if I have...

forums.audioholics.com

If you are the same op, may be you missed some of the responses in the link above, in which, again, I responded along with others, even Gene chimed in later.

The fact is, Denon, Marantz, and some other manufacturers do send LFE signal to the mains (front left and right) is you set those speakers to large, and subwoofer to "no".

The LFE distributions is brand now the the X3800H through A1H, and the corresponding Marantz models, it gives you even the option to adjust the amount of LFE signal you want to send to those large floor speakers. It is probably added to facilitate the new "Directional bass" option, but even if you don't use directional bass, you can take advantage of the LFE distribution setting for your application, where you have truly full range speakers.

So, if you are the same OP, your got the answers, if not, you also get the same answer on another thread you posted just a few days ago. Is there a specific part of page 238 in the manual that is not clear to you? Sorry, just curious, and do try to help if I could. Obviously you can also contact Denon for an official response, and if you do, I hope you would share their response, in case others have doubts on this as well.

 

[davidc]

I am very curious about this post, as someone asked a similar (may be the same) question on Audioholic.com very recently, and I responded by quoting page 238 in the manual, same as what you just did in your post. I guess that's just coincidence...

Can LFE be sent to large main floorstanding speakers if no subwoofer?

So, I confused here. Confusion over LFE with only LARGE floor standing main speakers. I have a Denon AVR-x4800h. I have large floor standing main speakers capable of reproducing low bass at high volume with low distortion. I do not have a subwoofer. I was under the impression that if I have...

forums.audioholics.com

If you are the same op, may be you missed some of the responses in the link above, in which, again, I responded along with others, even Gene chimed in later.

The fact is, Denon, Marantz, and some other manufacturers do send LFE signal to the mains (front left and right) is you set those speakers to large, and subwoofer to "no".

The LFE distributions is brand now the the X3800H through A1H, and the corresponding Marantz models, it gives you even the option to adjust the amount of LFE signal you want to send to those large floor speakers. It is probably added to facilitate the new "Directional bass" option, but even if you don't use directional bass, you can take advantage of the LFE distribution setting for your application, where you have truly full range speakers.

So, if you are the same OP, your got the answers, if not, you also get the same answer on another thread you posted just a few days ago. Is there a specific part of page 238 in the manual that is not clear to you? Sorry, just curious, and do try to help if I could. Obviously you can also contact Denon for an official response, and if you do, I hope you would share their response, in case others have doubts on this as well.

Yes, that was me. I sincerely appreciate you pointing out the replies to the Audioholics thread. I haven't been getting any notifications that it had been replied to. I double checked my email and all my settings and am still not getting replies. But...all this is good news. It is amazing how much confusion and discussion this subject has generated. Many people claiming that they know for sure the answer, and then turns out they may be wrong. So, it appears that while Dolby may have their standards, the actual implementation of the the way the LFE channel is distributed can vary from one AVR manufacturer to another. Indeed, from one model to another.

I opened a chat, and later a phone call to Denon. But, their people are not well informed. They chat person said "try this setting, maybe it will help". Or, "I think if you did this, it might work". Yeah, real helpful. The phone call was more productive, but it was apparent that this rep was just reading the manual along with me, and didn't really know much about it. I requested an escalation with Denon, but as of 48 hours later, no response yet.

The manual is clear...sort of. The main thing that wasn't perfectily clear in the manual is how the subwoofer on/off setting would affect this. It wasn't mentioned on page 238. I just get frustated with the weird reverse syntax and occassional double negatives in the manual.

 

[peng]

I opened a chat, and later a phone call to Denon. But, their people are not well informed. They chat person said "try this setting, maybe it will help". Or, "I think if you did this, it might work". Yeah, real helpful. The phone call was more productive, but it was apparent that this rep was just reading the manual along with me, and didn't really know much about it. I requested an escalation with Denon, but as of 48 hours later, no response yet.

In my experience, if I wanted to get pass their first line responders, I would us Marantz customer support instead and they appeared to be a little more flexible in attempting to get an answer from their 2nd line, or even engineering. Not always worked but was successful once or twice. Their first level did tend to just read of the manuals, though they might be more familiar with info available to them, naturally.

The manual is clear...sort of. The main thing that wasn't perfectily clear in the manual is how the subwoofer on/off setting would affect this. It wasn't mentioned on page 238. I just get frustated with the weird reverse syntax and occassional double negatives in the manual.

On this, it isn't too bad, because they did say the following on page 227:
That implies, though quite clearly that you can set subwoofer to none/or no/or off whatever you want to call that, and the LFE signal would still be sent to the "large floor speakers", i.e. unaffected. The only part that gets affected is the subwoofer out, if you leave it at "LFE", it may be get any sound, or if set to "LFE-Main" then it will get the signal depending on the crossover setting.

Since you use 5.0 only, the subwoofer settings (none, LFE, LFE+Main) would have no effect, but it is obviously best to set it to "NONE".

Edit: The manual does not say this explicitly, so it is possible that the LFE Distribution setting may not work if you se the Subwoofer to "None", like you said, the manual is not clear.

If that's the case, then you have to option to cheat (should be too hard), by setting Subwoofer to LFE+Main so that you can use the LFE Distribution setting, or forget about it and simple set Subwoofer to "None" FL/FR to "Large/Full range" and LFE will get send to FL/FR as they always do in the past, such as the 4700, there is no reason for the 4800 not to work the same way. May be you can use the phone support and get them to confirm this, if not, try the test track approach to do your own verification. I don't have a 4800 so I can't do that, but I am quite confident (though can't say 100%) it will work, like Gene said, and I had done so with the older models when I was using the mains large/sub none method when using small satellite+sub systems.

Denon/Marantz owner's manual are not 100% clear for sure, but having moved on to Anthem, I missed my D+M manuals a lot, just compared the number of pages of the manuals, you will see that D+M did try to cover most, if not all of what they can do.