Leveling up from my Wiim Ultra Amp

[StephenMarkLay]

First let me say I have nothing but praise for my Wiim Ultra Amp. However, I have two systems on my living room. One is a desktop setup with Kef LS/50 and Wiim Sub Pro currently run via my MacBook and an NAD D3020 (Hypex class d) amp. It is great but I want the ability to run the Kefs with room correction and eq that the wiim offers. The Wiim is currently paired with my Linton 85's. The Lintons sound great with the Wiim amp but there are times I am really pushing that little amp (max volume) and I know that there is a greater chance of blowing a tweeter if it goes into clipping etc. So I am thinking more power/current. I do think there is probably a bit more bottom end control available as well.

So... I could get an Ultra streamer and be done or I could get a mini wiim and then a minidsp unit. There are a lot of options like separate dacs, reclocking (useless?) etc and I am wondering what your folks take on what might be a next logical step for me without going broke in the process!

Thanks so much!

 

[DVDdoug]

and I know that there is a greater chance of blowing a tweeter if it goes into clipping etc.

That's a popular MYTH. While IT'S TRUE that you can burn-out a speaker by pushing the amp into clipping, higher power is even MORE DANGEROUS.
Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?

So I am thinking more power/current.

Voltage, current, impedance and power are all mathematically related. (You can look-up the formulas if you're interested.) If your amplifier is putting-out 100W the only way to get more current is to increase the voltage which also increases current and power.

Or, lower impedance speakers will "pull" more current and power. Or if you put two 8-Ohm speakers in parallel you've got a 4-Ohm load. Assuming the amplifier can handle the 4-Ohm load, they'll both get the same voltage, current, and power so the total current and power are doubled.

Or with no speaker connected (infinite impedance or resistance) the voltage is still present but no current flows and no power is coming out.

I do think there is probably a bit more bottom end control available as well.

You might need bigger woofers or a subwoofer. Size isn't everything but you aren't going to get "realistic bass" that you can feel in your body from a tiny woofer.

 

[StephenMarkLay]

That's a popular MYTH. While IT'S TRUE that you can burn-out a speaker by pushing the amp into clipping, higher power is even MORE DANGEROUS.
Why Do Tweeters Blow When Amplifiers Distort?


Voltage, current, impedance and power are all mathematically related. (You can look-up the formulas if you're interested.) If your amplifier is putting-out 100W the only way to get more current is to increase the voltage which also increases current and power.

Or, lower impedance speakers will "pull" more current and power. Or if you put two 8-Ohm speakers in parallel you've got a 4-Ohm load. Assuming the amplifier can handle the 4-Ohm load, they'll both get the same voltage, current, and power so the total current and power are doubled.

Or with no speaker connected (infinite impedance or resistance) the voltage is still present but no current flows and no power is coming out.


You might need bigger woofers or a subwoofer. Size isn't everything but you aren't going to get "realistic bass" that you can feel in your body from a tiny woofer.

Thank you! I didn't know that about clipping. I will read that much appreciated! It does make me feel better for sure since I was concerned about driving the amp. Even though It never sounds strained even at max volume. Yep I could use MO POWER!

 

[JeremyFife]

ASR plays havoc with 'conventional' upgrade logic and plans, it can be quite irritating to realise that there's no real benefit to upgrading (apart from speakers, or room perhaps)

You can EQ your desktop from the MacBook - for simplicity, swap out your NAD for the WiiM Ultra Amp just long enough to make some RoomFit measurements. Take a note of them (if you like the change) and apply those settings in your preferred software. Others can help with the detail, I'm no Mac expert.
Then swap the amps back to their original homes.

Agree with @DVDdoug : if you want better bass, you may want to look at subs. If you do that you can high-pass the Lintons, which will reduce the load on your WiiM and give you a touch more power too.

 

[jcarys]

I would personally keep it simple. You've had a good experience with the Wiim amp, so adding an Ultra to your other system seems like an obvious choice.

You could also always flip your amps between the two systems and see if the NAD + Linton combo makes you happier. If not, then just add in your choice of amp to take it up to Linton's top spec of 200 watts.

 

[StephenMarkLay]

ASR plays havoc with 'conventional' upgrade logic and plans, it can be quite irritating to realise that there's no real benefit to upgrading (apart from speakers, or room perhaps)

You can EQ your desktop from the MacBook - for simplicity, swap out your NAD for the WiiM Ultra Amp just long enough to make some RoomFit measurements. Take a note of them (if you like the change) and apply those settings in your preferred software. Others can help with the detail, I'm no Mac expert.
Then swap the amps back to their original homes.

Agree with @DVDdoug : if you want better bass, you may want to look at subs. If you do that you can high-pass the Lintons, which will reduce the load on your WiiM and give you a touch more power too.

Thanks you! I have never really played the upgrade game per se and have always been happy. But I would disagree only in the WIIM with room correction / eq is a big upgrade from not having it. But that adds functionality rather than just a subjective impression of sound.

Thanks again...

 

[Puddingbuks]

Buy a subwoofer. High pass the main speakers. This will make life easier for the wiim amp, as it doesn’t have to power the subbass. Your speakers will also benefit, as those tiny midwoofers will be relieved from heavy bass excursions and can focus now on what they are good at.

 

[StephenMarkLay]

Buy a subwoofer. High pass the main speakers. This will make life easier for the wiim amp, as it doesn’t have to power the subbass. Your speakers will also benefit, as those tiny midwoofers will be relieved from heavy bass excursions and can focus now on what they are good at.

I like where this thread is going! See you in the subwoofer forum

 

[Jiraya369]

First let me say I have nothing but praise for my Wiim Ultra Amp. However, I have two systems on my living room. One is a desktop setup with Kef LS/50 and Wiim Sub Pro currently run via my MacBook and an NAD D3020 (Hypex class d) amp. It is great but I want the ability to run the Kefs with room correction and eq that the wiim offers. The Wiim is currently paired with my Linton 85's. The Lintons sound great with the Wiim amp but there are times I am really pushing that little amp (max volume) and I know that there is a greater chance of blowing a tweeter if it goes into clipping etc. So I am thinking more power/current. I do think there is probably a bit more bottom end control available as well.

So... I could get an Ultra streamer and be done or I could get a mini wiim and then a minidsp unit. There are a lot of options like separate dacs, reclocking (useless?) etc and I am wondering what your folks take on what might be a next logical step for me without going broke in the process!

Thanks so much!

if you intend to play that loud, floorstanders are the way to go, the KEF Q11 Meta is a relatively inexpensive one with excellent loudness capabilities, the Emotiva XT2 is not linear but can get loud.

Speakers are a game of compromise, if you want good design, loudness AND linearity/neutrality, you have to pay up. If you can find a Revel F228Be used for cheap then that'd be my pick, can't get better than those in terms of loudness capabilities.

Also, I think some big subs like the RSL 12S would do you good. Q11 Meta + an RSL 12S should keep you happy in terms of SPL capabilities.

 

[gasolin75]

I was at the biggstest hifi show in Denmark yesterday

You have to listen to the biggest series of svs towers (those that are angled) 4x6.5" woofer pr speaker or if you have the money, the top of the line has 4x8" woofers pr speaker,channel, that is 8 woofers, they used the new onkyo preamp and power amp they used wass lower by 12db in the app and it was super loud,punchy, the 6.5" tower is rated at 27hz

 

[harkpabst]

The Lintons sound great with the Wiim amp but there are times I am really pushing that little amp (max volume) and I know that there is a greater chance of blowing a tweeter if it goes into clipping etc.

I know that your case is mostly settled and others have stepped in pointing out that higher available output voltage is even more dangerous than an output single clipped at a lower voltage. But I'd still like to remind you that the WiiM Amp Ultra simply will not clip when driven to its maximum power:

Re-read the full review for all the details. You can still generate digital clipping, e.g. by carelessly applying EQ or pre-gain, but the power amp section itself cannot be driving into clipping even at 0 dBFS.

I second the subwoofer approach,.making use of WiiM's sub management with proper high pass filtering of the mains. The WiiM Amp Ultra will still not have higher available maximum output power at mid or high frequencies. With the volume at 100, they will still be as loud as before. But the bass extension into lower frequencies plus reduced distortion of the Linton's woofers will make a noticeable difference.

 

[StephenMarkLay]

I know that your case is mostly settled and others have stepped in pointing out that higher available output voltage is even more dangerous than an output single clipped at a lower voltage. But I'd still like to remind you that the WiiM Amp Ultra simply will not clip when driven to its maximum power:
View attachment 517848

Re-read the full review for all the details. You can still generate digital clipping, e.g. by carelessly applying EQ or pre-gain, but the power amp section itself cannot be driving into clipping even at 0 dBFS.

I second the subwoofer approach,.making use of WiiM's sub management with proper high pass filtering of the mains. The WiiM Amp Ultra will still not have higher available maximum output power at mid or high frequencies. With the volume at 100, they will still be as loud as before. But the bass extension into lower frequencies plus reduced distortion of the Linton's woofers will make a noticeable difference.

Thank you very much. You are right in that I did not read this or at least carefully enough. Since I do use room correction which will boost frequencies as needed, perhaps it would. But I have had it to 100 volume and I didn't notice any rise in distortion.

But yes! I am now running to 12" subs with the lintons.

 

[gasolin75]

75 % at the moment with my streamer,vibelink combo


How is it when doing 100%, is the peaks,dynamics limited to prevent distortion ?


Is 75% like having it at 100% and playing 75% with peakes that can go up to what it is at 100% (100/200) only peakes not avarage spl, continous power, which isn't that high (dynamic headroom) so it's not likely dynamics to use 100% when playing 75%

Or is 75% limited so peakes dynamics can only be 75% of max power or dynamic power




What sounds best 100% volume limit and playing 75% (no limited on dynamics i should have 75% with peaks up to 100% ?)

or 75% volume limit (where i guess you are more likely to hit dynamic,peaks limit when using all of the power there is at 75% limit)



Limit volume in the app, does it limit avarage volume or peaks ? 75% of 100/200 watt or 75% of the dynamic power the amp has in 8 and 4 ohm ?



Any tried playing 50% (50 watt in 8 ohm and 100 watt in 4 ohm) with 50% and 100% volume limit (same volume reardless of volume limit one is just 100% of what the limit is and the other is just 50% of the volume limit)

 

[staticV3]

75 % at the moment with my streamer,vibelink combo


How is it when doing 100%, is the peaks,dynamics limited to prevent distortion ?

No compression happens inside the WiiM units.

With 75% volume, your dynamic peaks are at 75% so to say, with the average volume then effectively a few percentage points below that.

 

[gasolin75]

so it's limiting the peaks ?

How about 100% volume limit playing 50% vs 50% volume limit and playing 100%

What would sound best (havn't tested it) since we here have an amp that doesn't distort at max volume, it's not like a normal amp that playes max at 11 o'clock and have a all the way up to 5 o'clock for song,music recorded lower than avarage and vill distort at 1 o'clock with a song that plays max at 11 o'clock

Even at 100% my amp vibelink don't distort but it's loud

 

[staticV3]

so it's limiting the peaks ?

No. Dynamics are 100% preserved. No limiting/no compression.

How about 100% volume limit playing 50% vs 50% volume limit and playing 100%

Identical output.

 

[gasolin75]

Identical output.

But what about sound quality ?

Only is at max volume limit the other is at 50%

 

[staticV3]

But what about sound quality ?

Identical output = identical sound quality.

 

[john61ct]

The Wiim Amp Ultra is much better than Vibelink in driving a difficult load.

But you need a LOT more power/current for it to make a strong, or even medium difference.

More efficient speakers AND double sizing the power amp will be needed to really sit up

 

[gasolin75]

Have no problems driving what i have

Wiim has always been budget but the sound really good

Making a much more power full amp would get them out of budget and that's not what wiim is

They do how ever make value for many hifi products even when a wiim ultra + vibe link is more expensive than the wiim amp ultra