Let's talk CD Players!

[LTig]

Can't speak to the AVR, but the latency with Oppo is on every output. It is less on the analog outputs,

If the delay is also on the analog output it definitely is the player, that's for sure.

not sure about S/PDIF (it is there but I do not know how long). This per my experience (and that of many others) and Oppo tech support (several times over the years). It is built into the MediaTek chip set and nothing Oppo can do about it. How much you (anyone) notice the chopped-of start very much depends upon the CD; many have a bit of a lead-in so it is not noticeable.

Linda Ronstaedt: Cry like a rainstorm is such a candidate.

 

[LTig]

It's actually the label side you should worry about more, that's where the reflective layer can be damaged.
The laser penetrates the top surface OK as long as nothing too diffractive is present like e.g. many (deep) cuts.

I know. Thank God the polycarbonat layer is thick enough.

A good analogy is when you look through binoculars and hold a finger directly against the front lense. The picture gets darker and less contrasty but still is sharp.

 

[Julf]

I think this is a field-of-use issue: for data use (computer) any error is a hard stop as it could be an executable program. This is clearly different from audio use where it is more important to keep going, and best effort real-time recovery is the only "solution" within the confines of the closed silver/black box.
Using a PC-drive for audio purposes could therefore be risky, precisely as you described, unless the CD player manufacturer has some sort of control over the firmware.

Using a PC drive for audio purposes would actually be better, because you would find out about ripping difficulties and errors, instead of the drive covering up the error and interpolating (basically faking it).

 

[Herbert]

There is this Video about the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2:

But my first Impression is that the reviever gets it wrong. The mechanism looks like a simple
Sanyo DV-M34 mechanism to me (mounted in a cnc-milled frame) and was not developed by Pro-Ject.
Besides more stiffness there is no benefit at all. They exchanged the original plastic disc table with a
milled one and that´s it. At first I had the impression the cone sits on a spring and therefor centers
the compactd disc better than the usual fixed cones. (Those flexible cones were a Standard in early
Sony CDPs. But in the videos I found there is no hint about this.

Bottom line - besides a fancy disc table and milled rame, nothing else was developed and is nothing special at all.
Sounds familiar...
In fact, the designer, Mr Jirousek works for Streamunlimited, a Vienna Company that offers
off-the-shelf / OEM Compact Disc circuits called Blue Tiger. They do this for maybe 15 years, also for Pro-Ject
Music Hall is one of the many companies using the BlueTiger hardware:

http://cn.streamunlimited.com/products/optical-storage/pb_cd-100leaflet.pdf

For the Blue Tiger circuits the transports available were the Sony KHM313 or Sanyo SF-HD870.

https://http2.mlstatic.com/unidade-optica-com-D_NQ_NP_14480-MLB4160889837_042013-F.jpg

https://www.iccfl.com/sanyo-sf-hd870-mechanism-new-original-p-15886.html

You can even find this piece of plastic in Accuphase Players - because there is nothing else available any more

Crap compared to a Sony BU-1C that accessed tracks in half a second back in 1985 and used brushless disc-motors
and no gear at all for the sled. I assume the BU-1C alone weights about one pound.

https://vintage-audio-laser.com/A-l-atelier-page-54

 

[Eirikur]

Using a PC drive for audio purposes would actually be better, because you would find out about ripping difficulties and errors, instead of the drive covering up the error and interpolating (basically faking it).

When listening I prefer some faked samples over a lengthy silence and a display saying "RETRY"...
Ripping is another matter, hence "field-of-use".

 

[anmpr1]

I'll always kick myself for selling my JVC XL-Z1050TN. A piece from the best days of the Japanese HiFi gear.
Built like a tank and heavy as one, transport was smooth as glass in open/close and dead silent when spinning.
A really beautiful piece that offered great sound too.
View attachment 34489

As I remember (and memory is not the most reliable) the 'Digifine' series of components were really the last of the important JVC gear sent over from Japan. You don't hear much from JVC anymore. I checked their Web; it's mostly TV oriented gear, along with some aftermarket car kit. Associated with what is left of Kenwood, now all part of Panasonic.

 

[anmpr1]

CD is my principle source of music. I mainly use a transport into my amp which has a built in DAC, but I do have lots of CD players too.

I think we are getting to the point where anything moving is a non-starter. Once I discovered SSD (solid state drives) I said to myself, "This is how it's going to be, from now on." Except for us old timers. I admit it, I still stack records on my Garrard.

 

[Paul E]

Still have a Cyrus CD6SE but having built a streaming system, it never gets used.

 

[Sal1950]

Just for convenience. Old style CDPs (those which cannot play MP3) are very fast in playback mode:

• Both CPDs in here (Kenwood DP5010, Marantz CD4000) are ready to work instantly after power on and read the TOC within 1 to 2 seconds after closing the lid.
• My BDP (Pioneer LX52) starts booting about 5 seconds after getting power, needs 15 seconds to boot, and another 15 seconds to detect the CD after the lid has closed. All together amounts to more than half a minute.

Your right but for playback of my library I only use the ripped files on the computer HD now. It's a fast as my mouse finger and much more convenient to do anything I want.

 

[daftcombo]

As anyone noticed clear difference between playing a CD on a CD or DVD player with good specs (even cheap) on RCA out and with the same player on S/PDIF out with a good DAC like Topping D30, D50, etc. ?

 

[daftcombo]

By the way I created this thread some time ago but it didn't have much success:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...list-of-thd-for-a-lot-of-cd-dvd-players.8996/
though there's some relation with this one.

 

[Hipper]

I only listen to Red Book CD, and CD-Rs made from them.

I use a TEAC P/70 Transport bought in 2004.

The only problem I had with it was that on a couple of occasions a disc got stuck in the player. I had to unscrew the top and prize the disc out. In order to prevent this happening again I was advised to rub a pencil on the inside of the disc's spindle hole. It worked.

If the Transport fails I may go the PC audio route rather then replace it as I have ripped all my CDs and use those on a headphone system.

I'm not one for playing complete CDs as there are only a few that do not have, for me, duff tracks. That's why I make compilation CD-Rs. However tastes change and using the PC I can put on 'shuffle' for the whole library. I find that quite pleasant and sometimes turns up tracks I like I seem to have overlooked.

One interesting point. I read somewhere that CD-Rs require more work for the laser to read and therefore reduce its life.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/playing-cd-rs-and-laser-life-expectancy.813324/

Post 6 makes a useful comment.

 

[daftcombo]

I only listen to Red Book CD, and CD-Rs made from them.

I use a TEAC P/70 Transport bought in 2004.

The only problem I had with it was that on a couple of occasions a disc got stuck in the player. I had to unscrew the top and prize the disc out. In order to prevent this happening again I was advised to rub a pencil on the inside of the disc's spindle hole. It worked.

If the Transport fails I may go the PC audio route rather then replace it as I have ripped all my CDs and use those on a headphone system.

I'm not one for playing complete CDs as there are only a few that do not have, for me, duff tracks. That's why I make compilation CD-Rs. However tastes change and using the PC I can put on 'shuffle' for the whole library. I find that quite pleasant and sometimes turns up tracks I like I seem to have overlooked.

One interesting point. I read somewhere that CD-Rs require more work for the laser to read and therefore reduce its life.

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/playing-cd-rs-and-laser-life-expectancy.813324/

Post 6 makes a useful comment.

I've never seen a dead laser in a CD player. It always worked for me to remove the dust on it and have it working 5 more years.

 

[restorer-john]

I've never seen a dead laser in a CD player.

I've seen plenty. The trouble is, "dead laser" to many technicians meant the entire laser sled mechanism or in some cases the entire laser/loading mech as a single unit, not just a low output laser diode. Huge numbers of perfectly good entire mechanism were thrown out in the early days due to perhaps a faulty spindle motor, a touchy limit switch, or a cracked nylon gear.

When I started with an upmarket HiFi store in sales, they had a huge box full of replacement entire CD mechanisms (Yamaha) complete with everything. Warranty replacement was drop in, drop out mechs. We had to keep them for a while in case Yamaha wanted to "count" them but eventually they just said to chuck them out. Obviously, I scored a decent number of them...

The laser diodes themselves have proved to be very reliable, however, many fail due to decreasing output as they age. Mainly occurred in the middle years of CD where cost-cutting pressures ruled supreme and the LDs were run too hard. It's rare to come across laser diodes with low output these days- the dead ones are long in landfill and the others just keep going. My LPM (Leader LPM-8000- internet pic below) allows testing and calibration, something simply not done with accuracy then or now.

It always worked for me to remove the dust on it and have it working 5 more years.

Most of the dust and dirt accumulates inside the laser block itself, caused by the focus coils constantly moving up and down- they suck dust and dirt in, and often onto the beam splitting prism. Only the very first generation machines can be pulled down successfully to fix that little problem. Diffraction/grating adjustment is no fun.

In terms of mechanisms, the Sony CDM-4F10A is the best IMO. People may call the mechanism a BU-xxx, but that is only the Base Unit. Just the metal part. The laser (KSS-xxx), the spindle motor and linear motor can be different across about 5-6 versions of essentially the same BU.

That said, at the other end of the spectrum, you have the Sanyo SFP-101N which costs less than $5 retail (Chinese copies) and they are pretty much industry standard in plastic boom-boxes and even some high end CD players....

Whenever I see a CD boom box thrown on the side of the road or at a junk shop, I'll open the lid and peer inside. 9/10 times you'll find one of these. The giveaway is that top gear frame moulding shape- very unique and easily seen.

Here's NAD's current model C 546 BEE CD player. It uses exactly the same, cheap $5 mechanism:

 

[DonH56]

^^^ Awesome post by @restorer-john

 

[restorer-john]

Awesome post by @restorer-john

Thanks Don.

I dug out some shots I took several years ago of an early Onkyo machine's laser block to show the 'dust' on the prism.

Beautiful die-cast block, machined metal objective and focus assembly.

Those particles are enough to cause the machine to be unable to reliably track. PD array is off to the left (hidden) but you can see the wires. LD to the right. The whole thing looks like a miniature cold war weapon if you ask me.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm still amazed at the whole technology and mechanics of reading the optical disc!
It was like some kind of miracle to me back at it's introduction and still mostly is.

 

[DonH56]

Look at the inside of a computer hard disk drive sometime, and the signal coming off the head. I even know (ok, "knew") the math and still think it's a miracle they can tell a "1" from a "0" out of that mess.

 

[Hipper]

As a matter of interest, are the disc brush laser cleaning devices useful, damaging, or a waste of time?

 

[restorer-john]

As a matter of interest, are the disc brush laser cleaning devices useful, damaging, or a waste of time?

A very good question. Unfortunately, the complexity and mystery of CD players lead to the equivalent of the "stylus cleaning brush" and audiophiles bought them in quantity, back in the day. Now we see those "cleaning" discs in thrifts and the temptation is there to just "give it a go".

I would say, generally not damaging unless you have a older Pioneer 6 disc magazine style player, or a stable platter Pioneer. Reason? The objective lenses fall off the laser blocks at the best of times from hanging upside down all those years (the glue becomes brittle) and those cleaning discs can knock them off easily, resulting in a dead player.

Some of the older/cheaper Sony laser heads used very thin plastic "hinges" for the suspension to center the objective lens- it can be easily broken in old age by lateral force- something those discs with brushes can easily do.

Definitely useful for in-dash car units where removal and dismantling to do a proper clean, takes half a weekend and lots of swearing. In-car units suffer more from dust and dirt on the objective lens and it's usually dry, so those discs with brushes can work quite well.

I wouldn't use any of the wet ones, the disc spins too quickly and really only makes a smear on the lens. I don't use them, because I do a proper dismantle and carefully clean deal, but I have given some of the better ones to friends. They have reported good results over the years.