Let's discuss room correction

[edd9000]

I went to a demo put on by Linn over the weekend. They showed a browser based version of their Exakt system which they said they intend to make freely available (no date given, unfortunately). The "before and after" demo sounded very similar to what I hear when I switch in Acourate's filters in JRiver on my system - subjectively the sound was smoother, female vocals sounded very nice. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with my room correction - jazz vocals can sound very good, but rock often seems to lose some of its raw power - everything sounds too smoothed over - maybe not PA system enough to sound real..

Me too! great demo. Id love to try Acourate at some point.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I went to a demo put on by Linn over the weekend. They showed a browser based version of their Exakt system which they said they intend to make freely available (no date given, unfortunately). The "before and after" demo sounded very similar to what I hear when I switch in Acourate's filters in JRiver on my system - subjectively the sound was smoother, female vocals sounded very nice. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with my room correction - jazz vocals can sound very good, but rock often seems to lose some of its raw power - everything sounds too smoothed over - maybe not PA system enough to sound real..

Me too, I went to the demo then workshop on Friday afternoon, as did EDD9000.
The first thing that struck me was how much bigger the improvement was on an acoustic recording of "HMS Pinafore" than the pop music tracks.
The second, in the workshop, was how immensely powerful their Exakt software was, though here I could simply be showing my ignorance of the other systems. They demonstrated on a pair of kit speakers they had made up. This required not only the drive unit specs but quite a few measurements of their electrical properties too. The filters were able to correct amplitude and phase errors, even little phase wrinkles due to slight resonance. I was most impressed.
Their room mode correction was calculated rather than measured so needed data about room construction as well as sizes.

 

[amirm]

I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with my room correction - jazz vocals can sound very good, but rock often seems to lose some of its raw power - everything sounds too smoothed over - maybe not PA system enough to sound real..

By pulling down the peaks, energy is taken out of the system which can make bass sound too light. The fix for that is to boost the overall bass response which is part of the sloped down overall room/target curve.

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't understand why Linn don't use a microphone seems a little half arsed.
Keith

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

I went to a demo put on by Linn over the weekend. They showed a browser based version of their Exakt system which they said they intend to make freely available (no date given, unfortunately). The "before and after" demo sounded very similar to what I hear when I switch in Acourate's filters in JRiver on my system - subjectively the sound was smoother, female vocals sounded very nice. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with my room correction - jazz vocals can sound very good, but rock often seems to lose some of its raw power - everything sounds too smoothed over - maybe not PA system enough to sound real..

I hate to be a pain in the ass. But, it is my impression over many years that many - not all, to be safe from flame wars in return - rock music fans often just do not like flat, articulate low distortion bass. Again, he says defensively, I do not mean all. Just some.

Aside from room modal issues, which are everpresent, there have been numerous speakers over the years that have added their own boomy voice. And, some had become very popular as a result. In the early 70's one such travesty was the JBL Century 100, which was a huge commercial success. But, that was ancient history in the JBL dark ages under a very different regime than after Toole came in.

My point is not everybody "likes" more linear, less distorted sound, and often it seems the masses prefer anything but that. For the minority, that is an acquired taste which requires getting used to. But, maybe you just need some tone controls in your system in order to crank the frequency spectrum around to your taste, since reality or what the engineers or artists intended is not really knowable.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I hate to be a pain in the ass. But, it is my impression over many years that many - not all, to be safe from flame wars in return - rock music fans often just do not like flat, articulate low distortion bass. Again, he says defensively, I do not mean all. Just some.

Aside from room modal issues, which are everpresent, there have been numerous speakers over the years that have added their own boomy voice. And, some had become very popular as a result. In the early 70's one such travesty was the JBL Century 100, which was a huge commercial success. But, that was ancient history in the JBL dark ages under a very different regime than after Toole came in.

My point is not everybody "likes" more linear, less distorted sound, and often it seems the masses prefer anything but that. For the minority, that is an acquired taste which requires getting used to. But, maybe you just need some tone controls in your system in order to crank the frequency spectrum around to your taste, since reality or what the engineers or artists intended is not really knowable.

I remember hearing a stereo salesman hype the benefit of Cerwin Vegas. It has more boom than the JBL Century L100s. I cringed thinking both that he was right and I thought the L100s already had too much boom boom. One of those cases where a stereo salesman is telling the truth and yet somehow it is still distasteful.

 

[Burning Sounds]

By pulling down the peaks, energy is taken out of the system which can make bass sound too light. The fix for that is to boost the overall bass response which is part of the sloped down overall room/target curve.

I know where you're coming from Amir, and that was my first thought, but I don't think it is that simple - it is not the amount of bass that is the issue - the leading edge appears soft and lacks definition and yet there is plenty of detail - it's a difficult thing to describe subjectively.

I hate to be a pain in the ass. But, it is my impression over many years that many - not all, to be safe from flame wars in return - rock music fans often just do not like flat, articulate low distortion bass. Again, he says defensively, I do not mean all. Just some.

Aside from room modal issues, which are everpresent, there have been numerous speakers over the years that have added their own boomy voice. And, some had become very popular as a result. In the early 70's one such travesty was the JBL Century 100, which was a huge commercial success. But, that was ancient history in the JBL dark ages under a very different regime than after Toole came in.

My point is not everybody "likes" more linear, less distorted sound, and often it seems the masses prefer anything but that. For the minority, that is an acquired taste which requires getting used to. But, maybe you just need some tone controls in your system in order to crank the frequency spectrum around to your taste, since reality or what the engineers or artists intended is not really knowable.

No flame wars from me, not my style at all, I'm just trying to find some answers to why with certain genres one filter system sounds so different and preferable to the other. Linkwitz LX521.4s have some of the best bass I've heard from a dipole, articulate and powerful (as long as they are on a solid floor) - they are a long way from JBL Century's.

Let me explain the two setups:

1) IIR xovers and IIR shelving filters etc all done in JRiver PEQ. Only additional filter to stock LX521 setup is an 8db cut at 48hz to cure a strong room mode.

2)FIR xovers and IIR shelving filters done in Acourate - resultant curves are identical to those in JRiver. Acourate logsweep used to smooth room response. Resulting filter dropped into JRiver.

I can switch between the PEQ and Convolver with 2 clicks and levels are as close as I can match them.

I'll try and do some sweeps in REW tomorrow as that may prove useful in determining what is happening here.

 

[Dynamix]

I hate to be a pain in the ass. But, it is my impression over many years that many - not all, to be safe from flame wars in return - rock music fans often just do not like flat, articulate low distortion bass. Again, he says defensively, I do not mean all. Just some.

That makes sense to me. When you go see a rock band in some random club, the sound is far from "flat" and there is plenty of distortion. And that's going to be your reference, so of course you're going to feel like something is missing when listening to a studio recording of rock played over a "perfect" hi-fi system in a "perfect" room.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I don't understand why Linn don't use a microphone seems a little half arsed.

D'accord.

 

[Brad]

I also use acourate, and MSO for setting up a source/sink pair of subs. They are placed at the midpoint of the front and rear walls and have been effective at reducing the boominess from the first and second length modes.
I am presently using an active 4-way synergy type horn system and have a fair amount of room treatment.
I use acourate for the crossovers and room correction. I think that room correction is really a misnomer when talking about high frequency correction, it's really speaker correction/ room curve manipulation.
I have found that time alignment is a critical feature that acourate enables characterisation of. However, it's not easy to get 'right' as the different measurement techniques often produce different results. Nevertheless, timing does have a large effect on the imaging and soundstage depth.
I also agree that the bass region is a bit of an enigma with acourate. The bass region can sound a bit shy. It is reasonably well controlled, and I have tried boosting the bass with the target curve, but it's really 'punch' that seems to be lacking.
The result of the acourate processing is a speaker and room transfer function that has a significantly improved step response.

 

[RayDunzl]

it's really 'punch' that seems to be lacking.

Turn up the volume?

 

[Brad]

Yeah, at really loud volume (90dB average at LP) it does have punch.
I am not certain that there is a real problem. It may also be that the couch is a good absorber (this was stated in ' how to get better sound'). The couch is too difficult to remove, as it's an upstairs room.
I should also add that my reference for a 'good' system, is a system with Vandersteen 7 speakers, dCS equipment etc. This system has a lot of punch, but is probably not realistic compared live acoustic music. Maybe one day the owner will let me measure the response.
Note, my system treated with acourate does image better across the whole soundstage than the vandersteen 7s.

 

[RayDunzl]

Maybe one day the owner will let me measure the response.

That could provide some interesting data points relative to your own setup.

 

[March Audio]

Been using this today and sorted out some issues on my sub.

https://eclipseaudio.com.au/fir-designer/

 

[Sal1950]

I hate to be a pain in the ass. But, it is my impression over many years that many - not all, to be safe from flame wars in return - rock music fans often just do not like flat, articulate low distortion bass. Again, he says defensively, I do not mean all. Just some.

You do have to separate the audiophiles from the average joe's for both types of music. I'm sure the percentage of audiophiles is much higher for classical listeners than rock. But rock audiophiles learned to turn off the loudness button a long time ago and as you comb the various audiophile sites and magazines a large number of the folks buying and discussing high end gear are popular music people. Go to the hi fi shows and what is the preponderance of music you hear being played on these expensive and accurate rigs?
It's the popular music fans whose interest in accuracy and wallet$ that todays high end market was built from.
The generalizations your making and examples given are 40 years in the grave.

 

[Nightlord]

You do have to separate the audiophiles from the average joe's for both types of music. I'm sure the percentage of audiophiles is much higher for classical listeners than rock.

I can't help but wonder what is the cause and effect here.... the more capable setup I've gotten, the more I enjoy (sufficiently well recorded) rock / metal music. There are many audiophile speakers that do very well on sparse acoustic music and classical but that totally fail when asked to do metal, dubstep or complex electronic music. So aren't people just listening to that music that their speakers can handle to a large degree? And same when stores/conventions demo them... Heck, some of the most played tracks hardly sound bad on anything!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

So aren't people just listening to that music that their speakers can handle to a large degree?

I think most are buying speakers that do well with the music that they prefer to listen to.

 

[Nightlord]

I think most are buying speakers that do well with the music that they prefer to listen to.

Yes - and that's a big mistake very often *IMO*. They end up with something that has an emphasis on some common anspect in that style... And that emphasis is a flaw for other styles. I tell people not to buy speakers that they can praise something about, I tell people to buy speakers they can neither praise nor fault. I have yet to find a single kind of coloration or such that fixes a flaw that is common to all recordings delivered by any kind of media.

I listen to almost anything, from Opera to synthetic beeps&noise, from softspoken female singer-songwriters to metal growling, from early blues to dubstep just well as current chart hits....

Also want to add that that emphasis over time often results in a sameness that leads to boredom and the search for something else...

 

[Sal1950]

I listen to almost anything, from Opera to synthetic beeps&noise, from softspoken female singer-songwriters to metal growling, from early blues to dubstep just well as current chart hits....

Yep, IME accurate speakers that can deliver the dynamics and bass that rock enthusiasts demand will sound good with anything. Small monitors with low sensitivity, constrained dynamics and no bass may be fine for some types of polite music but fail when asked to rock. Think LS3/5a's

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes - and that's a big mistake very often *IMO*. They end up with something that has an emphasis on some common anspect in that style..

That's possible but not assured. Since no choices are without compromise, one should make a choice that minimizes relevant compromises and gives less weight to those that are irrelevant.