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Let's discuss room correction

March Audio

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Spent today getting hands on with Acourate for the first time. Have to say it us the best result I have had from correction software.

Audyssey is pants, Dirac is good, Acourate is highly convincing.
 

Burning Sounds

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Have you tried adjusting the subsonic filter parameter in macro4?
It's apparently best to set it to match your speaker's (or sub) natural low frequency roll-off

Thanks, Brad, I was aware that the subsonic filter has a big impact on the step response, but not what an optimum setting might be for my speakers. I have to confess I've done no experimenting with my subsonic setting - it's the same as I set it in JRiver's IIR filters so quite low at 14hz I think. As the LF on my Linkwitz dipoles is eq'd anyway I'll have to experiment with different settings and play it by ear (sorry, bad pun!):D

I have taken a deeper look into the recent sweeps I did and found that the group delay is pretty much identical so that's not the reason.

However, looking at the THD levels I have noticed that whilst Acourate FIR filters and JRivers IIR filters are very similar in THD, the Acourate filters seem to generate more even order distortion in comparison. In most instances the differences are not huge so not sure if it's audible, but there are instances in the midrange where the even order harmonics are twice as high as those in the IIR filters.

Here's some THD examples from the bass region:

JRiver IIR
23hz - 2.67% @81db
30hz - 1.08% @85db
40hz - 0.98% @86db
50hz - 0.28% @86db

Acourate FIR
23hz - 2.78% @86db
30hz - 1.07% @86db
40hz - 1.03% @86db
50hz - 0.35% @87db

It's interesting to see that the additional eq that Acourate adds below 30hz only increases distortion slightly, especially as there's also a 5db increase in output level.

Regarding the even/odd harmonic differences here's an example:

40hz
IIR - 0.12% 2nd harmonic; 0.8% 3rd harmonic
FIR - 0.6% 2nd harmonic; 0.4% 3rd harmonic

I'd be interested if anyone else could share any DRC measurements to see if there is anything similar going on, or if this is just my setup.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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If we want just what is on the recording, we just need to sit close to some small speakers. Or we can wear headphones for the ultimate stereo crosstalk removal.

Is there still a residual notion of hi-fi being a "lifestyle" product that allows us to walk around a large room, chatting to the many young women who have been attracted there by the idea of meeting a cool cat with a high end stereo, and all the while hearing clinically accurate sound in every location? If so, this is in fundamental contradiction to the idea of room correction via manipulating what comes out of the speakers, which can only be valid in one location. If you're limiting yourself to one location anyway, just sit closer to some smaller speakers.
Yes, near field or headphone listening can reveal some things, likely at he expense of others, since most recordings were not engineered for near field or headphone listening. Also, I do not think those methods overcome or are necessarily more revealing of what is happening in the bass. Room modes and other bass issues do not go away in the near field, although some do, of course, via headphones. But, I do not think headphone bass is the ideal standard we can rely on.

Yes, of course, room EQ does not correct at all locations in the room. No one ever said it did or that it would be useful to do so. I also disagree that it can be "valid" at only one location. If by "valid" you mean "measures perfectly", then I concede your point. However, it can result in measurable and perceptual improvement at multiple locations, even when using single point mike calibration of the EQ. Your argument seems a classic example of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

Personally, I prefer to rely on multi point using sophisticated acoustic averaging at points in and surrounding the main listening area. That may not produce "perfect" sound in any of those locations, but it can provide noticeably improved sound at all listening positions in a typical array of listening seats in a typical room. My friends and I know this exceedingly well from experience with different systems in different rooms. We all consider EQ essential and we would never part with it. To me, that is valid.
 

amirm

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One of the issues with multi-point correction with a single microphone is that it is not repeatable. Not easily anyway. This makes it difficult to experiment and learn what is going on in the room. Make no change but do the measurement twice in a row and you get different results.

The JBL Synthesis ARCOS in contrast uses an 8 microphone system so you can leave them stationary. The drawback is that the kit costs thousands of dollars so Harman loans it to dealers to perform the test.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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One of the issues with multi-point correction with a single microphone is that it is not repeatable. Not easily anyway. This makes it difficult to experiment and learn what is going on in the room. Make no change but do the measurement twice in a row and you get different results.

The JBL Synthesis ARCOS in contrast uses an 8 microphone system so you can leave them stationary. The drawback is that the kit costs thousands of dollars so Harman loans it to dealers to perform the test.
I agree. And, this presents a problem for audiophiles who wish to experiment, measure and remeasure. That is not me, the dilettante. But, the question remains which produces the "better" EQ result: single or multi point? Or, does it make a significant difference at all in practice for audiophiles in typically smallish rooms with only one "money seat"?

Pro tools like ARCOS have answered that and I believe it is widely accepted among acousticians to go multipoint. That may be in part because their practice may be more oriented to larger home theaters and auditoriums with many seats. Still, I think that some single point tools can be quite effective at improving sound for the listener, and they allow for easier experimentation and post-calibration measurement. Credible audiophile users like @dallasjustice and @RayDunzl have been very happy with them.

As I said once before, though, some EQ tools authors in the audiophile consumer market have gone to considerable additional expense and introduced added user complexity by implementing multi-point. Their research has led them to do this for what they believe are added benefits in the result. Others may disagree. But, at least we have choices.
 

Cosmik

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The JBL Synthesis ARCOS in contrast uses an 8 microphone system so you can leave them stationary. The drawback is that the kit costs thousands of dollars so Harman loans it to dealers to perform the test.

Panasonic WM61 mic capsule costs £1.83. Pay me a few thousand dollars and I will wire some up in a grid for you :)

A software-selectable multiplexer would only cost a few thousand more.
 

hvbias

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It's not that I'm dissatisfied with Acourate, far from it. It's very rare that I switch it out of my system these days. I'm really just trying to determine what is causing the differences I am hearing in the bass region. I need to do more investigation, but listening to music is much more fun and that pesky What are you listening to now thread keeps thowing up gems that I've not come across...:) I will contribute to it once I've ploughed my way to the end...

Anyway, back to Acourate - the big positives I get are beautiful solid vocals, audience sounds and the overall ambience of live recordings seem enhanced and high freqencies sound much improved. Overall it's a real positive. It's only in the bass region where I feel there is something that could potentially be improved, but it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the music.

Siegfried Linkwitz has an interesting piece on his website about group delay at low frequencies - I'm not saying this is the cause - but it makes interesting reading - http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#F

I streamed some tracks from Qobuz last night - Thunder by Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller and Victor Wooten - much more cone movement when Acourate is switched in (the Acourate filter probably eqs down further - I'll need to check), but the growl in (I think) Wooten's bass was better defined with Acourate switched out. But having Acourate switched in didn't stop my enjoyment of being battered by those three bass players :D And it could have been nothing more than that extra low bass was simply swamping the leading edge of that growl....

Appreciate the info, I won't postulate or guess what you're hearing since I don't have hands on experience with Acourate yet... still a long way to go with the future system. Admittedly I've only cracked open @mitchco ebook and have plenty more reading to.

I would love to hear what @dallasjustice has to say on this topic.

One of my more specific uses of the software is using it to do a crossover between midbass horn and the constant directivity mid-treble horn. Since this crossover occurs a little higher than Schroeder I imagine there are multiple ways that I can tackle it.
 

dallasjustice

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I think multi point is just another way. I don't think it has any absolute benefit over single point. From a time domain correction standpoint, a single point correction should be better if the multipoint measurements are being used to correct for time as well. The problem is that nobody really reveals their secret sauce. So we don't really know to what extent the multi point measurements are being used for time corrections versus non-minimum phase detection to prevent "over correction." IMO, the biggest problem with any DSP filter is when it's used to correct unfixable phenomena. But there's absoluteley no need for multi point correction to detect these unfixable problems.
Here is some great info about how one can distinguish MP from non-MP using a single sweep in REW.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/minimumphase.html
 

Burning Sounds

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minidspiir.jpg
acourate1.jpg
Can you post the step response of the comparison between acourate and Jriver filters in a 20ms window?

Brad, apologies I missed this post.....

Here's a couple of step response graphs from some time ago when I first started using Acourate. The first shows minidsp iir filters I was using and the second shows same iir filters in jriver together with Acourate. Not quite apples vs apples I know, but at least it shows Acourate's contribution.

My current set up is a little different in that all the xovers and eq are done in Acourate.

I've had a bit of time the last couple of days to tweak my Acourate settings and have much improved the bass region now - the softness has gone, so much happier.
 

Nightlord

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Very nice! Had a very nice impulse response on my old Canton Digital 1.1:s. That was probably one of the deciding factors when I chose them once upon a time.
 

Brad

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What changes did you make to get improved bass performance in acourate?
 

Chuck Gerlach

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There is one important audible difference (at least with Dirac) on multi-point vs single point. If, in a single point measurement, the system tries to correct (for example) a large, narrow dip, the end result can be less than pleasing. Depending on where the frequency is that gets "fixed" the sound can end up being harsh. I had this problem not with doing a single measurement but with multiple measurements but spaced very close together. There was an occasional harshness to vocals (and some instruments) that was very bothersome. Took new measurements but spaced them further apart and problem solved.
 

Rodney Gold

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I have used sigtech , z-sys, behringer, Tact, antimode 2.0 , Lyngdorf Room perfect , Dirac , minidsp , Acourat DRC miniDSP and many dsp controls software provides , like J river and Roon and foobar...I have done the swarm of subs thing with 4 SVS subs
So you can see I fully believe in DSP room correction

However I still have a treated room with multiple bass traps , basically I built a room within a room. Lots of absorption and diffusion where it matters, the room sounds very natural , not dead with nice ambience..it is extremely quiet .. noise floor 18dba
size is 8m x 6m x 2.6m

My system is Vivid audio Giya G1's and twin devialet d premier amps , fed via a squeezebox touch .. roon and Tidal complete the picture
Currently I use Dirac . I think its the best time and freq DSP of all I have used
I have huge peaks at 21 , 42 and 66 hz , 21hz is +20db ..Dirac whacks them all out

My views
Below 3-500hz DSP helps a huge amount
Bass traps are essential , Tube traps the best way to go
Swarm of subs can do wonders if you get it right
upper side of things best fixed with physical treatment
Full range DSP is what I use , tried the only sub 500hz thing , but I like what dirac does full range
Its all subjective , my target curve might horrify someone else but it sounds great for me
room treatment alone is the best option , dsp should be the cherry on the top
Room treatment and DSP give the biggest bang for the buck
DSP is way cheaper to get to the sound you like , more effective the box or wire swapping
simple parametrics on the bass can do wonders
 
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Chuck Gerlach

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I have used sigtech , z-sys, behringer, Tact, antimode 2.0 , Lyngdorf Room perfect , Dirac , minidsp , Acourat DRC miniDSP and many dsp controls software provides , like J river and Roon and foobar...I have done the swarm of subs thing with 4 SVS subs
So you can see I fully believe in DSP room correction

Wow. I was the Marketing for SigTech for 10 years. Owned 4 of them so I could correct 6 channels in my HT system and 2 in my 2 channel system. I, too, have used many of the same products (TacT, miniDSP, Dirac, etc) and would agree that Dirac is the best. I also agree that it is the "cherry on top" BUT a very large cherry as passive room treatment will only get you so far. I have yet to be able to completely tame south of about 200Hz with only bass absorbers along with multiple subs. PEQ's can get REALLY close and that plus Dirac gets me where I want to be.
 

dallasjustice

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Welcome Rodney!
I have used sigtech , z-sys, behringer, Tact, antimode 2.0 , Lyngdorf Room perfect , Dirac , minidsp , Acourat DRC miniDSP and many dsp controls software provides , like J river and Roon and foobar...I have done the swarm of subs thing with 4 SVS subs
So you can see I fully believe in DSP room correction

However I still have a treated room with multiple bass traps , basically I built a room within a room. Lots of absorption and diffusion where it matters, the room sounds very natural , not dead with nice ambience..it is extremely quiet .. noise floor 18dba
size is 8m x 6m x 2.6m

My system is Vivid audio Giya G1's and twin devialet d premier amps , fed via a squeezebox touch .. roon and Tidal complete the picture
Currently I use Dirac . I think its the best time and freq DSP of all I have used
I have huge peaks at 21 , 42 and 66 hz , 21hz is +20db ..Dirac whacks them all out

My views
Below 3-500hz DSP helps a huge amount
Bass traps are essential , Tube traps the best way to go
Swarm of subs can do wonders if you get it right
upper side of things best fixed with physical treatment
Full range DSP is what I use , tried the only sub 500hz thing , but I like what dirac does full range
Its all subjective , my target curve might horrify someone else but it sounds great for me
room treatment alone is the best option , dsp should be the cherry on the top
Room treatment and DSP give the biggest bang for the buck
DSP is way cheaper to get to the sound you like , more effective the box or wire swapping
simple parametrics on the bass can do wonders
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Wow. I was the Marketing for SigTech for 10 years. Owned 4 of them so I could correct 6 channels in my HT system and 2 in my 2 channel system. I, too, have used many of the same products (TacT, miniDSP, Dirac, etc) and would agree that Dirac is the best. I also agree that it is the "cherry on top" BUT a very large cherry as passive room treatment will only get you so far. I have yet to be able to completely tame south of about 200Hz with only bass absorbers along with multiple subs. PEQ's can get REALLY close and that plus Dirac gets me where I want to be.

I am a Dirac fan, too. I do not know if it is the ultimate, end all, be all. But, it does an impressive, easily audible job, is not too difficult to learn, is easy to use, is not too expensive, handles hi rez up to 192k/24 in the PC version, etc., etc. I am a dedicated fan, unless something clearly better comes along.

The question keeps coming up, though: treatments vs. EQ? Most audiophiles have not done either one, so which should they pursue? Of course, that some audiophiles have done nothing about their rooms does not prevent them from arguing about "the best approach" to improved room acoustics online. All the better to argue about approach as a pretext for still doing nothing to solve their room acoustics problems, which are typically huge. No worry. They can do more by a new equipment purchase, some cables, maybe, or those awesome Shakti Hallographs or some tweak from Synergistic audio, some nice footers and cones under speakers and stuff, etc.

Ideally, to me, all reasonable and credible means, active or passive, would be pursued. In my ideal, "hit the lottery" listening room, acoustic consultants will be actively pursuing comprehensive design and treatment solutions to better sound based on acoustic science. However, I do not believe that can be achieved without active DSP Room EQ, as well.

Which is more important, passive or DSP? They do overlap considerably in their potential contribution to the final sound in the room. The ideal uses the contributions of both.

So, both are part of the ideal solution. But, where to start if you are unable to afford the ideal or to do both, if you are just starting out, or if you are agnostic about this whole room acoustics thing? I say DSP EQ is the place to start, not passive treatments, bass traps, etc. DSP EQ is much simpler and less expensive. It is also possible to directly compare the subjective results of DSP on the sound - switch it on , then off, on again, etc. - nearly impossible with room treatments. I would also argue that DSP EQ is actually more effective in the deep bass, a huge advantage.

The question of which contributes more overall to the idealized final result, treatments or DSP EQ, is I think impossible to answer. Both are necessary in a comprehensive ultimate solution. But, for newbies, start with DSP EQ. I think it is much, much more than the cherry on top.
 

Sal1950

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I say DSP EQ is the place to start, not passive treatments, bass traps, etc. DSP EQ is much simpler and less expensive. It is also possible to directly compare the subjective results of DSP on the sound - switch it on , then off, on again, etc. - nearly impossible with room treatments. I would also argue that DSP EQ is actually more effective in the deep bass, a huge advantage.
Fully agree, not only that but for a number of reasons many of us just can't introduce much beyond furniture, drapes, carpeting, etc; into the listening room.
 

Rodney Gold

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Depends on whats wrong before you start .. if you have good bass performance .. I would say physical is best .. if you want you CAN use DSP to modify the tonality etc ..
If your major problem is in the bass.. then DSP works exceptionally *at listening position*
The idea is to find a good mix of physical and DSP
All rooms benefit big time with physical treatment .. you can make very nice WAF diffusion and absorption panels for a dual room and tuck away a tube bass trap or 2
You can go more to town in a dedicated room..

Both DSP and treatment are relatively cheap compared to hifi components

I am busy making 12 x 7ft x 20" diameter tube traps .. they will cost me around $100 a piece , or less ... same commercial type trap would cost me $1000
So DIY is the way to go. The tube traps have a 3 fold function , bass absorbtion (its a pressure device not a velocity device) they are also a diffusion and absorbtion device in that 1/2 the diameter has a reflective layer and the other 1/2 is absorbtion .. depending how its rotated dictates the function.

I have come across many folk that are horrified by using DSP .. it *pollutes* their system .. once demonstrated as to what it can do .. many of those have elected to then use DSP ..

Why is the room important -- well it's what is mangling your sound .. that nice flat curve signal you can get going to the speakers gives rise to a graph that looks like the himalays .. its the room....
I have pals that have spent well in excess of $100k on their systems , put into a compromised room , my advice it to build a dedicated room on their house - current building cost are around $500 a sq m .. 50 m2 is a nice size-- cost $25k .add $10k of treatment and away you go , your own mancave music room. often less than the latest box/speaker .. adds value to the house too
 

Nightlord

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I don't have tube traps in my cinema.

Here's now my acoustician (Ingvar Öhman, Ino Audio-animation/Guru Audio) decided to handle it.
I do have a "traditional" platform stuffed with insulation below the rear seats(open at the front to approx 50%), but most of all I have a fake rear wall that's 1.5' thick:
20120902.jpg

So the actual room is a bit larger than the used cinema room is:
20120819.jpg


Stuffed with isulation:
20121120.jpg


On the cinema side 50% open with horizontal 'diffusion':
20121102.jpg


And on the other side 50% open with standing 'diffusion':
20130110.jpg


If you plot the three lowest longitudinal modes of the full room, the back was stands where it will be of good use for all three.

(had there not been a hatch in the ceiling to the attic requiring some special treatment, I would not have mad the equipment slot in the wall at all)
 
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